From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qt0-f182.google.com (mail-qt0-f182.google.com [209.85.216.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EFD9C3BA8E; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 16:13:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-qt0-f182.google.com with SMTP id z8-v6so8954299qto.9; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 13:13:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/3oLv2mvj+rJyzx6dPs8SWkHtkzqi2/zbYQbAh7jUTY=; b=QAL89bT01Wik0zubN7jVyH7TSWyRf1OGYBjW63llNtbK6B83aK0kvVxNMJDbcvA3vs 0uJOm8ZP8UfyXcWHLI2HAVNikvQnf5jHDloS0clJLlkR3H8GyuoYMueubVfspQkZb7YB YL3oetT2EzvU2xc8nc3zGISLv8HcX4jsL1I+/3HnZhiqF0cvqnABJk6vZWkJahof15h3 acG/OB1S8zkuI/k5xlDVrgO5HRnecEnos+DElA3W9MypwCRPaM5sosg066Qpi6aHaOsD 3Opb1mxkk+rr/ZQmuri5uSiDMjOx0YCFiaFuQlaSmGxL9XtJLvlSLjS+wO3r0B9Xz45R h/gw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlEwj3ru4cpv5mHP/9FyVjnaGewr4t0W8jfIyaiN49D7f0y7+/gF ZmnslJFQjkOJ4le+19e5lMGsVjuloeF+Xb+i4yw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpdDNKuL/05szlRx2HVh4AuBAcyCh1+2gEOLlJAH+9Se/v6TYiUBfaTF3wgH6v8S3oMJOBWrhbco0qO7VBh/U0k= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:43cb:: with SMTP id w11-v6mr22141608qtn.371.1532549606502; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 13:13:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <22AC529F-9EF5-4ECF-85DD-F9ED08CD3C47@gmail.com> <1532544843.837624328@apps.rackspace.com> In-Reply-To: <1532544843.837624328@apps.rackspace.com> From: Jim Gettys Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 16:13:08 -0400 Message-ID: To: "dpreed@deepplum.com" Cc: Dave Taht , cake@lists.bufferbloat.net, make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e577900571d88244" Subject: Re: [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] gaming dscp codepoint? X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 20:13:27 -0000 --000000000000e577900571d88244 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My memory is that some games do set diffserv bits, but I don't remember exactly which one is set by what games. PFIFO-FAST reputedly had support for that particular code point. (rather, PFIFO-FAST had some sort of support, and the gamers noticed and some used it. I mostly agree with the rest of Dave Reed's points, with some caveats. On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 2:54 PM dpreed@deepplum.com wrote: > I don't quite understand this. Diffserv may exist, but no Internet > operators support it. It may be "supported" in edge devices, but since th= e > "service" is in the network queueing, who cares? > > The Linux gamer market is rounding error in the global game community. > > And console gamers depend on the ISP's non-implementation. > > Caveat: I have said for years that diffserv's huge list of codepoints is > essentially the result of a committee that has gone wild, creating a > standard that is missing any useful path to adoption. There's no computab= le > "translation" of the vague descriptions in the standard to a predictable > router queueing behavior. This is super true in places like LTE, where yo= u > can observe bad congestion and bufferbloat even today. > > Discussing what codepoint means what is like discussing trivia about an > imaginary fantasy land. > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Dave Taht" > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2018 8:34pm > To: "Jonathan Morton" > Cc: "Cake List" , "Make-Wifi-fast" < > make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net> > Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] [Cake] gaming dscp codepoint? > > On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 5:06 PM Jonathan Morton > wrote: > > > > > On 25 Jul, 2018, at 3:01 am, Dave Taht wrote: > > > > > > cs4? > > > > > > cs4 and cs5 end up (typically) in the (oft buggy) linux vi queue on > wifi. > > > > > > ef? > > > > > > do any of the gamers here observe any codepoints in use? When I > > > surveyed this a few years ago, I saw very little usage, and what > > > little there was was all over the map. > > > > If it were up to me, > > Wasn't my question. Do you observe any of your games using any codepoints= ? > > >I would use EF for realtime position/command updates and voice comms, CS= 0 > for everything non-time-critical (like matchmaking, garage, shop), and CS= 1 > for downloading patches. > > Well, I was leaning towards cs4. I no longer remember what ef maps > into on linux wifi, particularly since qos_map_set was created for > hostapd. Is openwrt tweaking that at all? > > These days my aps do not use 802.11e at all and I'm about to push a > change forcing a max of 2ms per AC via the beacon. > > Clients on campus don't seem to use much dscp but I'm certainly seeing > ecn from apple devices now. > > > > > > Reason is, EF is the only DSCP I can count on being interpreted as > "latency sensitive" rather than "for video streaming". > > > > - Jonathan Morton > > > > > -- > > Dave T=C3=A4ht > CEO, TekLibre, LLC > http://www.teklibre.com > Tel: 1-669-226-2619 > _______________________________________________ > Make-wifi-fast mailing list > Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast > -- > Reed Online Ltd is a company registered in England and Wales. Company > Registration Number: 6317279.Registered Office: Academy Court, 94 Chancer= y > Lane, London WC2A 1DT. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Make-wifi-fast mailing list > Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast --000000000000e577900571d88244 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My = memory is that some games do set diffserv bits, but I don't remember ex= actly which one is set by what games.=C2=A0 PFIFO-FAST reputedly had suppor= t for that particular code point. (rather, PFIFO-FAST had some sort of supp= ort, and the gamers noticed and some used it.

I mostly agree with the rest of Dave Reed's points= , with some caveats.

On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 2:54 PM dpreed@deepplum.com <dpreed@= deepplum.com> wrote:
I don&#= 39;t quite understand this. Diffserv may exist, but no Internet operators s= upport it. It may be "supported" in edge devices, but since the &= quot;service" is in the network queueing, who cares?

The Linux gamer market is rounding error in the global game community.

And console gamers depend on the ISP's non-implementation.

Caveat: I have said for years that diffserv's huge list of codepoints i= s essentially the result of a committee that has gone wild, creating a stan= dard that is missing any useful path to adoption. There's no computable= "translation" of the vague descriptions in the standard to a pre= dictable router queueing behavior. This is super true in places like LTE, w= here you can observe bad congestion and bufferbloat even today.

Discussing what codepoint means what is like discussing trivia about an ima= ginary fantasy land.

-----Original Message-----
From: "Dave Taht" <dave.taht@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2018 8:34pm
To: "Jonathan Morton" <chromatix99@gmail.com>
Cc: "Cake List" <cake@lists.bufferbloat.net>, "Make-Wifi-fast= " <make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] [Cake] gaming dscp codepoint?

On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 5:06 PM Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com> wrote: >
> > On 25 Jul, 2018, at 3:01 am, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > cs4?
> >
> > cs4 and cs5 end up (typically) in the (oft buggy) linux vi queue = on wifi.
> >
> > ef?
> >
> > do any of the gamers here observe any codepoints in use? When I > > surveyed this a few years ago, I saw very little usage, and what<= br> > > little there was was all over the map.
>
> If it were up to me,

Wasn't my question. Do you observe any of your games using any codepoin= ts?

>I would use EF for realtime position/command updates and voice comms, C= S0 for everything non-time-critical (like matchmaking, garage, shop), and C= S1 for downloading patches.

Well, I was leaning towards cs4. I no longer remember what ef maps
into on linux wifi, particularly since qos_map_set was created for
hostapd. Is openwrt tweaking that at all?

These days my aps do not use 802.11e at all and I'm about to push a
change forcing a max of 2ms per AC via the beacon.

Clients on campus don't seem to use much dscp but I'm certainly see= ing
ecn from apple devices now.


>
> Reason is, EF is the only DSCP I can count on being interpreted as &qu= ot;latency sensitive" rather than "for video streaming".
>
>=C2=A0 - Jonathan Morton
>


--

Dave T=C3=A4ht
CEO, TekLibre, LLC
ht= tp://www.teklibre.com
Tel: 1-669-226-2619
_______________________________________________
Make-wifi-fast mailing list
M= ake-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wif= i-fast
--
Reed Online Ltd is a company registered in England and Wales.=C2=A0Company =
Registration Number: 6317279.Registered Office: Academy Court, 94 Chancery =
Lane, London WC2A 1DT.



_______________________________________________
Make-wifi-fast mailing list
M= ake-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wif= i-fast
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