On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 4:48 PM Dave Taht wrote: > On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 2:04 AM Luca Muscariello > wrote: > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 12:44 AM Dave Taht wrote: > >> > >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 3:33 PM Jonathan Morton > wrote: > >> > > >> > > On 22 Apr, 2020, at 1:25 am, Thibaut wrote: > >> > > > >> > > My curiosity is piqued. Can you elaborate on this? What does > free.fr do? > >> > > >> > They're a large French ISP. They made their own CPE devices, and > debloated both them and their network quite a while ago. In that sense, at > least, they're a model for others to follow - but few have. > >> > > >> > - Jonathan Morton > >> > >> they are one of the few ISPs that insisted on getting full source code > >> to their DSL stack, and retained the chops to be able to modify it. I > >> really admire their revolution v6 product. First introduced in 2010, > >> it's been continuously updated, did ipv6 at the outset, got fq_codel > >> when it first came out, and they update the kernel regularly. All > >> kinds of great features on it, and ecn is enabled by default for those > >> also (things like samba). over 3 million boxes now I hear.... > >> > >> with <1ms of delay in the dsl driver, they don't need to shape, they > >> just run at line rate using three tiers of DRR that look a lot like > >> cake. They shared their config with me, and before I lost heart for > >> future internet drafts, I'd stuck it here: > >> > >> > https://github.com/dtaht/bufferbloat-rfcs/blob/master/home_gateway_queue_management/middle.mkd > >> > >> Occasionally they share some data with me. Sometimes I wish I lived in > >> paris just so I could have good internet! (their fiber offering is > >> reasonably buffered (not fq_codeled) and the wifi... maybe I can get > >> them to talk about what they did) > >> > >> When free.fr shipped fq_codel 2 months after we finalized it, I > >> figured the rest of the world was only months behind. How hard is it > >> to add 50 lines of BQL oriented code to a DSL firmware? > >> > > > > Free has been using SFQ since 2005 (if I remember well). > > They announced the wide deployment of SFQ in the free.fr newsgroup. > > Wi-Fi in the free.fr router was not as good though. > > They're working on it. :) > > > In Paris there is a lot of GPON now that is replacing DSL. But there is > > a nation-wide effort funded by local administrations to get fiber > > everywhere. There are small towns in the countryside with fiber. > > Public money has made, and is making that possible. > > There is still a little of Euro-DOCSIS, but frankly compared to fiber > > it has no chance to survive. > > I am very, very happy for y'all. Fiber has always been the sanest > thing. Is there > a SPF+ gpon card yet I can plug into a convention open source router yet? > > > > > I currently have 2Gbps/600Mbps access with orange.fr and free.fr has a > subscription > > at 10Gbps GPON. I won't tell you the price because you may feel depressed > > compared to other countries where prices are much higher. > > I'd emigrate!!! > > > The challenge becomes to keep up with these link rates in software > > as there is a lot of hardware offloading. > I just meant that these routers tend to use HW offloading and kernel qdiscs may be bypassed. > > At this point, I kind of buy the stanford sqrt(bdp) argument. All you > really need for gigE+ fiber access to work well > for most modern traffic is a fairly short fifo (say, 20ms). Any form > of FQ would help but be hardly noticible. I think > there needs to be work on the hop between the internet and the > subscriber... > > Web traffic is dominated by RTT above 40mbit (presently). > streaming video traffic - is no more than 20Mbit, and your occasional > big download is a dozen big streams that would > bounce off a short fifo well. > gbit access to the home is (admittedly glorious, wonderful!) overkill > for all present forms of traffic. > > I'm pretty sure if I had gig fiber I could come up with a way to use > it up (exiting the cloud entirely comes to mind), but > lacking new applications that demand that much bandwidth... > > I of course, would like to see lola ( https://lola.conts.it/ ) finally > work, and videoconferencing and game stream with high rates and faster > (even raw) encoding also has potential to reduce e2e latencies > enormously at that layer. > > > > > As soon as 802.11ax becomes the norm, software scheduling will become > > a challenge. > > Do you mean in fiber or wireless? wireless is really problematic at ANY > speed. > I meant that software scheduling becomes a challenge for the same reason as above. Increase in total throughput of the box will call for hardware offloading and kernel qdisc may be bypassed. It is not a challenge per se, it is a challenge because traffic may not be managed by the kernel. > > at gfiber, the buffering moved to the wifi, and there are other > problems that really impact achievable bandwidth. When I was last in > paris, I could "hear" 300+ access points from my apt, and could only > get 100-200kbit per second out of the wireless n ap I had, unless I > cheated and stuck my traffic in the VI queue. A friend of mine there, > couldn't even get wifi across the room! Beacons ate into a lot of the > available > bandwidth. Since 5ghz (and soon 6ghz - is 6E a thing in france) is > shorter range I'm hoping that's got better, but with > 802.11ac and ax peeing on half the wifi spectrum by default, I imagine > achievable rates in high density locations with many APs will be very > low... and very jittery... and thus still require good ATF, fq, and > aqm technologies. > > I have high hopes for OFDMA and DU but thus far haven't found an AP > doing it. I'm not sure what to do about the beaconing problem except > offer a free tradein to all my neighbors still emitting G style > frames.... > > And in looking over some preliminary code for the mt76 ax chip, I > worry about both bad design of the firmware, and > insufficient resources on-chip to manage well. > > How is the 5G rollout going in france? > Good question. I've just seen a speed test at Gbps on a phone which can drain your battery in less than 5 minutes. Amazing tech! > > I recently learned that much of japan is... wait for it... wimax. > > > > > Luca > > > > -- > Make Music, Not War > > Dave Täht > CTO, TekLibre, LLC > http://www.teklibre.com > Tel: 1-831-435-0729 >