From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm1-x333.google.com (mail-wm1-x333.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::333]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 74A063B29D for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 05:04:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x333.google.com with SMTP id y24so1413048wma.4 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 02:04:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ieee.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qWRHlrA+OF+U5refMOlIuSIDoSlo1kZxQkln3fhmblQ=; b=QhCO4zHclqg49xS0m7brOPcXaNzpvfIM7Utd8aSAQAk6G/Rh7dG8Ojpe9LymT+Azba aPO/Z0GlzCVSL1ZdG5ARfNEK8Cjra6PQz+AUaLXKLTKffXwAla+qniLsE+gCQGDFIiNb 4gYk2kn38u3QlweT3n1/+feNq7Oh1FyLlNYxk= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qWRHlrA+OF+U5refMOlIuSIDoSlo1kZxQkln3fhmblQ=; b=ujC31XfklJh1CNJINsYr2z5Lpv5bYwVccb8JOXGCe5vnITFQZ5C/vYE/L8tQ0P67Kg e1zFE8wmaMcT3LWmBwyylyuBXK0+JdoQuiDO8dt2C3UCrTtPX4tARftOyJjaAnnxARl/ A2iaSQ6tSKVtCqdBWwQXPbOoXWQy3nvtiFaoI5LdD3YLElwdOQ4keziJFPi/2HZW+9AJ mE8r7XOhe79esrhcQz+ATJUARZf3AiAku+rxIr0B1R9L5m1bQpaPQr6X7ShA+ORnuVh/ 0dDNd+cfeGtvAAJdlaSuhNUJ7qRWJodFpnR5SazdVL/1GrulaMU23Onvs9gL4rZSsujY YAIQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubY7S/uETcOExZ3Uvevv2S0gn4uu6uTIoW4wlQnyPLXH1MdyYRy bEj+kE83RVYbd4d74DO6KSN9pAqm49PB4ns+mrsmUg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIwaF+CjYnjM03beSvod0ULJmd5rsVgntaatFbeZ6HuZjJUmAXEZqCvbknrKxhkWrsAIo5ncghE805/IOdRQsE= X-Received: by 2002:a7b:cb17:: with SMTP id u23mr9327359wmj.130.1587546244479; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 02:04:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <75FEC2D9-BFC8-4FA2-A972-D11A823C5528@gmail.com> <603DFF79-D0C0-41BD-A2FB-E40B95A9CBB0@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Luca Muscariello Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:03:53 +0200 Message-ID: To: Dave Taht Cc: Jonathan Morton , Cake List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f7af3805a3dd69ab" Subject: Re: [Cake] Advantages to tightly tuning latency X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 09:04:05 -0000 --000000000000f7af3805a3dd69ab Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 12:44 AM Dave Taht wrote: > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 3:33 PM Jonathan Morton > wrote: > > > > > On 22 Apr, 2020, at 1:25 am, Thibaut wrote: > > > > > > My curiosity is piqued. Can you elaborate on this? What does free.fr > do? > > > > They're a large French ISP. They made their own CPE devices, and > debloated both them and their network quite a while ago. In that sense, at > least, they're a model for others to follow - but few have. > > > > - Jonathan Morton > > they are one of the few ISPs that insisted on getting full source code > to their DSL stack, and retained the chops to be able to modify it. I > really admire their revolution v6 product. First introduced in 2010, > it's been continuously updated, did ipv6 at the outset, got fq_codel > when it first came out, and they update the kernel regularly. All > kinds of great features on it, and ecn is enabled by default for those > also (things like samba). over 3 million boxes now I hear.... > > with <1ms of delay in the dsl driver, they don't need to shape, they > just run at line rate using three tiers of DRR that look a lot like > cake. They shared their config with me, and before I lost heart for > future internet drafts, I'd stuck it here: > > > https://github.com/dtaht/bufferbloat-rfcs/blob/master/home_gateway_queue_management/middle.mkd > > Occasionally they share some data with me. Sometimes I wish I lived in > paris just so I could have good internet! (their fiber offering is > reasonably buffered (not fq_codeled) and the wifi... maybe I can get > them to talk about what they did) > > When free.fr shipped fq_codel 2 months after we finalized it, I > figured the rest of the world was only months behind. How hard is it > to add 50 lines of BQL oriented code to a DSL firmware? > > Free has been using SFQ since 2005 (if I remember well). They announced the wide deployment of SFQ in the free.fr newsgroup. Wi-Fi in the free.fr router was not as good though. In Paris there is a lot of GPON now that is replacing DSL. But there is a nation-wide effort funded by local administrations to get fiber everywhere. There are small towns in the countryside with fiber. Public money has made, and is making that possible. There is still a little of Euro-DOCSIS, but frankly compared to fiber it has no chance to survive. I currently have 2Gbps/600Mbps access with orange.fr and free.fr has a subscription at 10Gbps GPON. I won't tell you the price because you may feel depressed compared to other countries where prices are much higher. The challenge becomes to keep up with these link rates in software as there is a lot of hardware offloading. As soon as 802.11ax becomes the norm, software scheduling will become a challenge. Luca --000000000000f7af3805a3dd69ab Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 12:44 AM Dave Taht &l= t;dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:=
On Tue, Apr 21,= 2020 at 3:33 PM Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 22 Apr, 2020, at 1:25 am, Thibaut <hacks@slashdirt.org> wrote:
> >
> > My curiosity is piqued. Can you elaborate on this? What does free.fr do?=
>
> They're a large French ISP.=C2=A0 They made their own CPE devices,= and debloated both them and their network quite a while ago.=C2=A0 In that= sense, at least, they're a model for others to follow - but few have.<= br> >
>=C2=A0 - Jonathan Morton

they are one of the few ISPs that insisted on getting full source code
to their DSL stack, and retained the chops to be able to modify it. I
really admire their revolution v6 product. First introduced in 2010,
it's been continuously updated, did ipv6 at the outset, got fq_codel when it first came out, and they update the kernel regularly. All
kinds of great features on it, and ecn is enabled by default for those
also (things like samba). over 3 million boxes now I hear....

with <1ms of delay in the dsl driver, they don't need to shape, they=
just run at line rate using three tiers of DRR that look a lot like
cake. They shared their config with me, and before I lost heart for
future internet drafts, I'd stuck it here:

https:= //github.com/dtaht/bufferbloat-rfcs/blob/master/home_gateway_queue_manageme= nt/middle.mkd

Occasionally they share some data with me. Sometimes I wish I lived in
paris just so I could have good internet! (their fiber offering is
reasonably buffered (not fq_codeled) and the wifi... maybe I can get
them to talk about what they did)

When free.f= r shipped fq_codel 2 months after we finalized it, I
figured the rest of the world was only months behind. How hard is it
to add 50 lines of BQL oriented code to a DSL firmware?


Free has been using SFQ since 2005 (if I remember well).=C2=A0
=
They announced= the wide deployment of SFQ in the free.fr n= ewsgroup.
Wi-Fi in the free.fr=C2=A0router was not as= good though.

In Paris there is a lot of GPON now that is replacing DSL. But there i= s
a natio= n-wide effort funded by local administrations to get fiber
everywhere. There are sm= all towns in the countryside with fiber.
Public money has made, and is making that p= ossible.
= There is still a little of Euro-DOCSIS, but frankly compared to fiber
=
it has no=C2= =A0chance to survive.

I currently have 2Gbps/600Mbps access with orange.fr and free.fr has a subscr= iption
at= 10Gbps GPON. I won't tell you the price because you may feel depressed=
compared= to other countries where prices are much higher.

= The challenge= becomes to keep up with these link rates in software
as there is a lot= =C2=A0= of hardware offloading.=

As soon as 802.11= ax becomes the norm, software scheduling will become
a challenge.
<= br>
Luca
--000000000000f7af3805a3dd69ab--