From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pf1-x42a.google.com (mail-pf1-x42a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 279BC3CB35 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2019 23:22:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-pf1-x42a.google.com with SMTP id n74so2024091pfi.9 for ; Sun, 03 Mar 2019 20:22:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mounce.com.au; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4birEyWdJHeUijTigTyd4qC758pB2t+O3boC6cd8oNs=; b=J6ynU1K2tCixGR+m/pYZm876VSW044drY0z1mRSVxfEjhRbr68RzpANPJID48oaten XuEubWRzhUddO+7ri3RPgTC3mgwS2tDEcOJnhSQqhezm51bAtZwWQtzpVF7wOxG5ghWr pckJdYrCjCY9XRliutU0GrFfRPEhdtgY6/eJg/ESIIFGsUdlyBxtGh9ycXGxtGNB7PCv KtqRYGjL5Kzl39MmH0UmOk3dGFOca86W1P9WCiV/ki2WkgZaF14urafU84Y1l4rPSnBW kKa2UwTyiQm2zLhd/wPE0x1J9NORPip1AXh9u3Z5dFVfGV151YM2K02ijBiSQ1PdCh8v 3vkw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4birEyWdJHeUijTigTyd4qC758pB2t+O3boC6cd8oNs=; b=thSZmea+++TKA9qgRMb/VaQjh5g5rE99fwHpD1Mhlt9/WhYispX7ZZyFouQ+OF3KNh k1gjCbPJcWdj8EIIq6ziNTCa3lM20rJClm9DAkyoeZUx4udD/B3MQhjMzYL9XN59XO7c oIxpl2myWg6Od5LymmdxJmVjmgUkqTx54LtDYfxysDVxALDVJl6hSj/6AjCodd0VzZQX WrWEjfGG/j61H1j8RgkzxMmf0jW5CGc/dPmxAcCe3m6AVIRuAfyKGglsZ5L6UcIBtt4x 3wlIdrqLj4xa8PwUvpSIqUGADv2nhuJ44qofyh2UoHEqGYyx8FP50XIF/vbfjsnRs7kt huPA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWXT1vqxEz5GSiUh/SKq6DY6oQsMizBh11DlaE42Z/EEvL8NEIQ UesvG0b9X35o5bS7eNoaCwWxFv2EVBQEi49QiZiRGw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwtKVVEaFg/ph2k/LsKgqbh2qqe+1BOjZvGp1lOT2RNR3PX9HyMkpjGDOil01rMh2NgIHjQhzKJAGyDcs01EcY= X-Received: by 2002:a63:7e0e:: with SMTP id z14mr16745242pgc.436.1551673365902; Sun, 03 Mar 2019 20:22:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <72193310-7502-47B8-9554-7F8F9FA23204@heistp.net> <874l8mn9iy.fsf@toke.dk> <417E17B2-17F7-4106-A92D-C5B5AC41D808@gmx.de> <5CC769AC-AD0C-40E8-BFCA-6AD2A8162FFC@gmail.com> <49A8FB42-EC0B-41B7-8CE4-888DF3C2A88D@gmx.de> <542D3BC3-317A-4F3E-A5B6-16FF678DDFAC@gmail.com> <5C8177FD-2605-4CDD-9AA2-F0E5AF9C779B@heistp.net> <1C81557C-2FD5-4C48-BC17-F9E841D08097@gmail.com> <511C22FF-64A5-46CA-BFB9-4EA350B76122@gmail.com> <9746402E-41EA-43F9-AAE6-53C038EABFFF@heistp.net> <000001d4d1f3$c5599eb0$500cdc10$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Ryan Mounce Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2019 14:52:34 +1030 Message-ID: To: Jonathan Morton Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Toke_H=C3=B8iland=2DJ=C3=B8rgensen_via_Cake?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Cake] Upstream submission of dual-mode fairness patch X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2019 04:22:47 -0000 On Mon, 4 Mar 2019 at 13:47, Jonathan Morton wrote: > > > On 4 Mar, 2019, at 4:55 am, Georgios Amanakis wro= te: > > > > =E2=80=A6the fairness logic wouldn't account for that "ingress traffic"= and would yield fairer results. > > Well there we have a quandary, since presently it enforces fairness of *l= oad* on the bottleneck link, but the change would alter that to fairness of= *delivered* traffic. The current setup is arguably more robust against ad= versarial traffic, don't you think? And it provides an incentive to use ECN so that congestion signals can be sent "for free" without dropping packets that have traversed the bottleneck. I'm firmly in favour of the current setup. This is analogous to the WiFi airtime fairness problem that Toke knows all too much about :) We want fairness of time on the bottleneck medium. Aiming for fairness of goodput to each host allows less efficient hosts to use more than their fair share of the medium - reducing the efficiency of the whole network and weakening incentives to be more efficient.