From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm0-x230.google.com (mail-wm0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 708193B2A3 for ; Fri, 28 Apr 2017 11:37:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x230.google.com with SMTP id w64so45619461wma.0 for ; Fri, 28 Apr 2017 08:37:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=N16jg7atA7EX48vpT79h+VGomIED+g0H1N7s/eeruQg=; b=eZ5/PK3t9RVFFPSJuNIndyu8+bGThovDVXYlfxSFPWsHcLYMs03XIxDXJaPgneALGJ LpjhwfkjQRnqEJ3JSlzfNb/P9NPqXXkg21QuI/88tHi4bIJ1MhP0TJa/Fj7ANZ9bIoEu xO+tDsx5pjv8RI7VfPY3RTf+c/6bM2z6P4E8oXeHNg16ANQTjnHwIWr4qVU1NvhoDjoZ 4EWJWdA4+Z6Dk/fivXjsYlYFDmo5amE7+Im6Yqph5Wpt8nND46WgWMEygrPMfRwhkCi9 TVuI1V6XKx5aJKZuc77QNM4lEcjwPccTDkoMDeGkZQ/R8xWgCdVoBKkPJOoBl70VOIEX RfFg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=N16jg7atA7EX48vpT79h+VGomIED+g0H1N7s/eeruQg=; b=uX6UmPCDrKsOTyvKXuSBPKbsszZ5ubLchBYKfy2nOSK++mU7TuR4Zu0G0tp+tRYwIq DuWhQrB3V2IAx9Dzs07LD2AtpmEaH0AEuH+QW4Z/IU2oFE32d4OKzNM/MjpsTaDAHHAv CcxKQaOdtjvp7wjehCLWpV+2SOp9jeLVFBNt2zSOkKAB03nvKXN0CPd1rO7T2982mgl8 6d8eYOrgEeauAGvKRYfevfxW2iMWRNVeUBBhrugsHlrqcUOD7O9urJFCmnlK1zxIB7ja zNreC53qUcYHe0AWmMnZ3cuoIJe1ZYQ2+UcVIxNBcPoETmLbNsJxIyiftNZjfW4fDVzI qkHw== X-Gm-Message-State: AN3rC/6ZMA97dT8DTgDN1g6IMj/460RtOi1ZmU42geq8+4177qENPPH6 aw1YZjchR2gCuPQsrw4zHnKXK21U8A== X-Received: by 10.80.144.206 with SMTP id d14mr10012104eda.9.1493393870428; Fri, 28 Apr 2017 08:37:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.169.59 with HTTP; Fri, 28 Apr 2017 08:37:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <05C0B0C7-4337-4115-AC6B-DA81392FCB34@gmail.com> <22E633CF-5EE0-4B0F-89A8-B790E730FB6C@gmx.de> <0BA3EE91-C5BC-4155-9D5D-D15D34490A1A@gmx.de> <00DDAA0B-7D99-489B-BA2D-1F20289409B3@gmx.de> <2FFBF256-2932-4FC7-AD1F-0D7CEE111809@gmx.de> <3fbfd0ee-7b41-0f83-8b44-ce7eed6a0562@gmail.com> <09DB0D8E-F63C-4126-8608-9EACDE99D2F1@gmail.com> From: Dendari Marini Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 17:37:49 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Cake] Getting Cake to work better with Steam and similar applications To: Benjamin Cronce Cc: Andy Furniss , cake@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0e479e281e78054e3bdb56 X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 15:37:51 -0000 --94eb2c0e479e281e78054e3bdb56 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hello, > Um, I wasn't sure if I should mention it, because it doesn't seem like it > should be able to cause these kinds of issues. But, if you're using steam *on > linux*, there's a known bug where it makes hundreds (thousands?) of DNS > queries per second, during downloads, which can cause issues if the DNS > server on your router starts throttling. I don't know how or if that should > affect the apparent performance of cake in different tests. But the > workaround is to have a local DNS cache like dnsmasq on your host (and of course it's not an issue on Windows > machines). All of my testing were done on Windows machines. My main test PC1 is using the latest Windows 10 update (Creators Update), while the other PC2 is using the latest Windows 8.1. > That is strange, if you are running the ping tests from the same PC > maybe there is something strange going on with windows. > I tested on both of my PCs. Also I didn't just do ping tests, but used real application like TeamSpeak or games with in-game network tools to analyze the issue. You can find my Ubiquiti Forums post with some more info in one of the earlier mail I sent. > What's your RTT(ping) to the different services, like Steam and Windows > Update? Some ISPs have local CDNs that can give incredibly low latency > relative to the provisioned bandwidth, which can cause bad things to happen > with TCP. > > I tried Battle.net and Steam (manually starting a Windows Update is rather difficult) and it seems Battle.net servers are closer compared to the Steam ones (and as I said I don't have the same issues with Battle.net). > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 3:44 PM, Dendari Marini > wrote: > >> >> On 25 April 2017 at 21:10, Jonathan Morton wrote: >> >>> >>> You may see some improvement from wholesale reducing the inbound >>> bandwidth, to say 10Mbit. This is especially true given the high asymmetry >>> of your connection, which might require dropped acks upstream to keep >>> filled downstream - and dropped acks will tend to increase burstiness of >>> sending on unpaced senders. >>> >>> You should also try to ensure ECN is fully enabled on your LAN hosts, >>> especially the ones running Steam. This will help to reduce >>> retransmissions and loss-recovery cycles. >>> >>> - Jonathan Morton >>> >>> >> Well, the only improvement I've seen when limiting the bandwidth with >> Steam has been at lower than 1Mbps, don't think I want to go that far. In >> all honesty I wouldn't limit it to 10Mbit either, with the overhead it >> means half of my total bandwidth, not a trade-off I'm willing to do. >> >> Still, the issue is real and it seems Steam is the only application I can >> reproduce it. I've seen reports about Battle.net and Windows Updates doing >> the same thing (because they should open multiple concurrent connections), >> but I can't reproduce it, at least not in the way Steam does. >> >> Anyway I'm gonna take a "pause" from all of this, I've wasted the last >> three weeks ago just for trying resolving it but unfortunately still >> nothing. Thanks all for your help, if there's any news I'll report it here. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Cake mailing list >> Cake@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cake >> >> > --94eb2c0e479e281e78054e3bdb56 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,=C2=A0


Um, I wasn't sure if = I should mention it, because it doesn't seem like it should be able to = cause these kinds of issues. But, if you're using steam=C2=A0on linux, t= here's a known bug where it makes hundreds (thousands?) of DNS queries = per second, during downloads, which can cause issues if the DNS server on y= our router starts throttling. I don't know how or if that should affect= the apparent performance of cake in different tests. But the workaround is= to have a local DNS=C2=A0
cache like dnsmasq on= your host (and of course it's not an issue on Windows machines).
=C2=A0=C2= =A0

All of my testing were done on Windows machines. My main test PC1= is using the latest Windows 10 update (Creators Update), while the other P= C2 is using the latest Windows 8.1.


That is strange, if you are running the ping tests from the = same PC
maybe there is something= strange going on with windows.

=C2=A0
I tested o= n both of my PCs. Also I didn't just do ping tests, but used real appli= cation like TeamSpeak or games with in-game network tools to analyze the is= sue. You can find my Ubiquiti Forums post with some more info in one of the= earlier mail I sent.


What's your RTT(ping) to the different serv= ices, like Steam and Windows Update? Some ISPs have local CDNs that can giv= e incredibly low latency relative to the provisioned bandwidth, which can c= ause bad things to happen with TCP.


I tried B= attle.net and Steam (manually starting a Windows Update is rather difficult= ) and it seems Battle.net servers are closer compared to the Steam ones (an= d as I said I don't have the same issues with Battle.net).
= =C2=A0

O= n Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 3:44 PM, Dendari Marini <dendari92@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:

On 25 April 2017 at 21:10, Jonat= han Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com> wrote:

You may see some im= provement from wholesale reducing the inbound bandwidth, to say 10Mbit.=C2= =A0 This is especially true given the high asymmetry of your connection, wh= ich might require dropped acks upstream to keep filled downstream - and dro= pped acks will tend to increase burstiness of sending on unpaced senders.
You should also try to ensure ECN is fully enabled on your LAN hosts, espec= ially the ones running Steam.=C2=A0 This will help to reduce retransmission= s and loss-recovery cycles.

=C2=A0- Jonathan Morton


Well, the only improvement I've seen when limiting the bandwidth with= Steam has been at lower than 1Mbps, don't think I want to go that far.= In all honesty I wouldn't limit it to 10Mbit either, with the overhead= it means half of my total bandwidth, not a trade-off I'm willing to do= .

Stil= l, the issue is real and it seems Steam is the only application I can repro= duce it. I've seen reports about Battle.net and Windows Updates doing t= he same thing (because they should open multiple concurrent connections), b= ut I can't reproduce it, at least not in the way Steam does.

Anyway I'm g= onna take a "pause" from all of this, I've wasted the last th= ree weeks ago just for trying resolving it but unfortunately still nothing.= Thanks all for your help, if there's any news I'll report it here.=

_______________________________= ________________
Cake mailing list
Cake@lists.= bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cake



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