From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-vk0-x229.google.com (mail-vk0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::229]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DB7A21F565 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 12:55:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vkex70 with SMTP id x70so52621010vke.3 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 12:55:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=wNTrOP9OOMSOBq9exn3VE6a7U4zq5E80THMcHJFomiQ=; b=joBVww/qoW/cf6Y7Rk0RmjYBo5AC++dLZlFI1YF6DhK7iLsslQDC+dTdOQGLSj1FIP 4KPXnwZGoBPkIZfMyNYcZZKd9ujkQfgwSQsbdmQuMCEo8E6+FEq6fwaa9ZOM0jvk0eV1 3Ubkh6vAyQJdZma3DK8AIJtDYfxVykIYyMZCdtztihdnpUOWM+vaUQWHHgGYZI1YsClZ /UQNv5AAAbmvo3Do4IFQmJpGC326Kca9k2OINjEUG/TEIhG8T6gabekGmJkUa5twTSWu ItK/pufVk8Br6+4W8+DBe7XpgFrKCQ4sabr0ctNXttoQ3f4r4uYvryFBEOtNOi/swI3+ T5Mg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=wNTrOP9OOMSOBq9exn3VE6a7U4zq5E80THMcHJFomiQ=; b=me4l9dMKXA9qT6V7dcdHGk3/hhVb9e1Zv/a3/0nhNMwlqHfLI9AREXYt/Cuxotczkw SYKjFiIUXRVx+lDaU+oKP1wmm4ULHCxHQSN3qCkbiZlS8vBhFEMptdb62roQZ5JXbaSG pDBMz0jckgl3a+RZFlyr/naxHr0W1hl1Z7Lwyfth1JjjOzPo4vyln/At7B6mPljHtqOj Ff5Hh7Xct6TTCpckmfOm7mRtp1+EbNXopRAcAFJtdLKMLlc7NANtt8g4Y4Eap5x79CQe ET0Yl5LGla2lWk/LK0XRuybYMyQ2sLN/BGWKoBB8eY6GL25JbWCNaZYTydRGOWfDSgPQ 8zVg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlu4h+66QrWZ2viJHnXY3f1oAJER3YchuCCwgLy2SRiP9dnHWVFW+mOxLzYrNYHNSsmfiRX X-Received: by 10.31.49.22 with SMTP id x22mr9717959vkx.60.1445543717498; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 12:55:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.31.170.201 with HTTP; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 12:54:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <34EEB0FF-1922-42B5-A778-9BB66B7C4FDC@csperkins.org> References: <5627B90D.8070106@alvestrand.no> <43B59C2F-4B64-4318-8339-04903AF2A6AC@cisco.com> <34EEB0FF-1922-42B5-A778-9BB66B7C4FDC@csperkins.org> From: Justin Uberti Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 12:54:57 -0700 Message-ID: To: Colin Perkins Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11440790ca2f400522b6dfd6 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 06:26:39 -0700 Cc: "Pal Martinsen \(palmarti\)" , "cake@lists.bufferbloat.net" , "rmcat@ietf.org" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , "aqm@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Cake] [rmcat] [rtcweb] Catching up on diffserv markings X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 19:55:41 -0000 --001a11440790ca2f400522b6dfd6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At present I'm not aware of any widely-deployed OS where an app can read the received ECN markings. iOS9 added support for this within the kernel, and it's used for TCP, but not exposed to userspace. There is an open Radar bug asking for this info to be exposed to userspace. FWIW, Chrome supports setting the DSCP markings if you set a magic parameter. But it's not on by default, mainly because we've never done the auditing necessary to ensure this doesn't randomly break in various dimly-lit parts of the internet. On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 2:13 AM, Colin Perkins wrote: > On 22 Oct 2015, at 08:48, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) > wrote: > > > On 21 Oct 2015, at 18:10, Harald Alvestrand wrote: > > Den 21. okt. 2015 17:51, skrev Dave Taht: > > I unsubscribed from rmcat and rtcweb groups a while back after I got > overloaded, and appear.in started working so well, (for both ipv6 and > ipv4! I use it all day long now!), to focus on finishing up the new > "cake" qdisc/shaper/aqm/QoS system, among other things. > > http://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/codel/wiki/CakeTechnical > > Cake is now entering the testlab, and among other things, it has > support for the diffserv markings discussed in the related, now > concluded dart wg, but in ways somewhat different from that imagined > there. We have not got any good code in our testbeds yet to test > videoconferencing behavior, and we could use some, although it does > look like we can drive firefox with some remote control stuff with a > fixed video playback now.... > > Five questions: > > 1) Has anyone implemented or tested putting voice and video on two > different 5-tuples in any running code out there? > > > All VC systems I know of except WebRTC-based ones do it, AFAIK. > It=E2=80=99s putting them on the same that's unusual. > > That sounds like the world I am living in as well. > > > 2) How about diffserv markings in general? Do any browsers or webrtc > capable software support what was discussed way back when? > > > I know Hangouts did something like that internally, on the controlled > network. But not according to spec. > > 3) Were diffserv marking changes eventually allowed on the same 5-tuple? > > > Yes, with caveats. draft-ietf-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos has the table. > > 4) Did the ECN support that was originally in one draft or another > ever make it into any running code? > > > I don't know. I think we lost it from the docs. > > (yea, apple plans to turn on ecn universally in their next OS!) > > So how would ECN work on UDP? I do not think the necessary bits from the > IP header are available for the application to do anything. I do think > Linux supports this, have not tested. > > And what about the network, would it support UDP when setting the ECN > bits? Probably a configuration related problem if not supported. > > > RFC 6679 describes how to use ECN with RTP on UDP, although as you say > there are implementation difficulties on some platforms. I=E2=80=99m not = sure > whether there are implementations. > > > 5) What else did I miss in the past year I should know about? > > > For TCP and SCTP congestion controllers, we're back to one DSCP marking > per flow, and resetting the congestion control state if DSCP marking > changes. > > > There is a new ICE wg. It was created so =E2=80=9Cnetwork people=E2=80=9D= could > participate without the overhead of listening to the SDP related > discussions. (https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/ice/charter/) > > .-. > P=C3=A5l-Erik > > > Feel free to contact me off list if these have already been discussed. > I have totally lost track of the relevant drafts. > > > They're not finished still :-) > > > Sincerely, > > Dave T=C3=A4ht > I just lost five years of my life to making the edge > of the internet, and, wifi better. > And, now... the FCC wants to make my work illegal > for ordinary people to install. > https://www.gofundme.com/savewifi > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > > -- > Colin Perkins > https://csperkins.org/ > > > > > --001a11440790ca2f400522b6dfd6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
At present I'm not aware of any widely-deployed OS whe= re an app can read the received ECN markings.=C2=A0

iOS9= added support for this within the kernel, and it's used for TCP, but n= ot exposed to userspace. There is an open Radar bug asking for this info to= be exposed to userspace.

FWIW, Chrome supports se= tting the DSCP markings if you set a magic parameter. But it's not on b= y default, mainly because we've never done the auditing necessary to en= sure this doesn't randomly break in various dimly-lit parts of the inte= rnet.

= On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 2:13 AM, Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org><= /span> wrote:
On 22 O= ct 2015, at 08:48, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) <palmarti@cisco.com> wrote:


On 21 Oct 2015, at 18:10, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote:
Den 21. okt. 2015 17:51, skrev Dave Taht:
I unsubscribed from rmcat and rtcweb groups a while back after I got
overloaded, and appear.in started working so well, (for both ipv6 and
ipv4! I use it all day long now!), to focus on finishing up the new
"cake" qdisc/shaper/aqm/QoS system, among other things.

http://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/codel/wiki/CakeTechnica= l

Cake is now entering the testlab, and among other things, it has
support for the diffserv markings discussed in the related, now
concluded dart wg, but in ways somewhat different from that imagined
there. We have not got any good code in our testbeds yet to test
videoconferencing behavior, and we could use some, although it does
look like we can drive firefox with some remote control stuff with a
fixed video playback now....

Five questions:

1) Has anyone implemented or tested putting voice and video on two
different 5-tuples in any running code out there?

All VC systems I know of except WebRTC-based ones do it, AFAIK.
It=E2=80=99s putting them on the same that's unusual.

That sounds like the world I am living in as well.


2) How about diffserv markings in general? Do any browsers or webrtc
capable software support what was discussed way back when?

I know Hangouts did something like that internally, on the controlled=
network. But not according to spec.

3) Were diffserv marking changes eventually allowed on the same 5-tuple?

Yes, with caveats. draft-ietf-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos has the table.

4) Did the ECN support that was originally in one draft or another
ever make it into any running code?

I don't know. I think we lost it from the docs.

(yea, apple plans to turn on ecn universally in their next OS!)

So how would ECN work on UDP? I do not think the necessary bits from t= he IP header are available for the application to do anything. I do think L= inux supports this, have not tested.

And what about the network, would it support UDP when setting the ECN = bits? Probably a configuration related problem if not supported.

RFC 6679 describe= s how to use ECN with RTP on UDP, although as you say there are implementat= ion difficulties on some platforms. I=E2=80=99m not sure whether there are = implementations.=C2=A0


5) =C2=A0What else did I miss in the past year I should know about?

For TCP and SCTP congestion controllers, we're back to one DSCP marking
per flow, and resetting the congestion control state if DSCP marking changes.


There is a new ICE wg. It was created so =E2=80=9Cnetwork people=E2=80=9D c= ould participate without the overhead of listening to the SDP related discu= ssions. (https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/ice/charter/)

.-.
P=C3=A5l-Erik


Feel free to contact me off list if these have already been discussed.
I have totally lost track of the relevant drafts.

They're not finished still :-)


Sincerely,

Dave T=C3=A4ht
I just lost five years of my life to making the edge
of the internet, and, wifi better.
And, now... the FCC wants to make my work illegal
for ordinary people to install.
https://www= .gofundme.com/savewifi

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


________________________= _______________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.o= rg
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
<= a href=3D"mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtcweb@ietf.org
= = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb



--=C2=A0
Colin= Perkins





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