From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-it0-x233.google.com (mail-it0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE4D03BA8E for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2018 01:49:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-it0-x233.google.com with SMTP id d16-v6so6285199itj.0 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 22:49:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=o2xYJ0Xmeg19rC/lbQlP1pNCIIbE2hzdIh65zYr9770=; b=YOpW5NLS0arO9RhuJD/gILKO2WWljLlw8NFg+TzIeIsQsuDrdy0PgoTFQPq4+kIDQp wTUtGol/2EBypPRg9pp+m6D3uKyjh9pwOzB6Xydx0AlwOd0LA5VpPqB5M4QsQOmi4Ou9 RXsOVecjJ99AKtcmgYiPcGqDhp2ooAQ1Y5QpF5PpdJuTFSer1tW+tkZFCoShlrNaGDtN MRuEhlzLbp49r1aScUbe1XNPhjQbLPc3exYzJyWtf4tsBigQPbrO22zi/GJ/t8MeMV5m ZKsmP4oWuM1B7FUIeQaISNU9xqJXiZWP68++tKHg8QhAeMIu18bKUfNa6ZOIqXBWZm46 szDQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=o2xYJ0Xmeg19rC/lbQlP1pNCIIbE2hzdIh65zYr9770=; b=kRFV9mOO+Qd59bIoHfIsk+Gzt/zL5nKKXUyzlBrWDm40ixrybOPVJe8zQIT39x0tMd 8pwibOl0hDoKYFyxVbj1HAeJpiypPPjl+A5jWIb+vUVusQNqvNCzzlvlUplBHD24v7M9 aQy4Je6HbzFDpfkpWksTBeLWkyMB9ZLOJrDPxIYGq7Dfls60iJq4w6jjh94aQdvkIlfI CX5JWsq/y8rea6IXpxAhI/noUAeGyq09RuHZ4cmnhpdskaQ2YIiE0c/LaLqZdParTpWE 1LPJ2mYXsbsHoCU5Y1D3AZD3JAGs8xtAUJa6N64+lnnQ9Itlgqs2eQ3vHxbBozwITwi+ F5SQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlE4N2PVE/bnBL72eDDIxv7LYLwEDK+M4knr24jiIn3bEBxCAttF nZntl90KQgEOacSrnSq7HmXXEWacscxef2weako= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfwzHLXvzQPGiDBRw8USqCjW2rbRGD2GcMlq2t2Kf72kvseQHzQ+U6DW2N0UENj7aVHtfhXX4ybGLs/tzmB6Ko= X-Received: by 2002:a02:4a0a:: with SMTP id k10-v6mr11533195jab.134.1532843374135; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 22:49:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a4f:6985:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 22:49:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1357421162.31089.1531812291583@webmail.strato.de> <1c323544b3076c0ab31b887d6113f25f572e41ae.camel@coverfire.com> <87woth28rw.fsf@toke.dk> <87tvol1z6h.fsf@toke.dk> <8980FA6C-508B-43E1-8C23-6EBC4A10499A@heistp.net> <842E73E8-368B-4F53-9A6C-31C10420536E@heistp.net> <8BDEED8F-3DDC-4CE2-9E56-8B0FD9CD6C04@heistp.net> From: Loganaden Velvindron Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 09:49:33 +0400 Message-ID: To: Dave Taht Cc: Pete Heist , Cake List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cfccc005721ce8f5" Subject: Re: [Cake] isp economics X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 05:49:34 -0000 --000000000000cfccc005721ce8f5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jul 28, 2018 at 11:03 PM, Dave Taht wrote: > > > On Sat, Jul 28, 2018 at 11:39 AM Pete Heist wrote: > >> >> On Jul 28, 2018, at 7:32 PM, Dave Taht wrote: >> >> >> Exactly. Many members, including myself, are limited by our CPE links >> during off hours, and by the backhaul during high traffic hours. >> >> >> 3 items >> >> 1) Co-locating some essential services (like netflix) might be of help. >> >> >> That=E2=80=99s a good idea, will bring that up with the admins. >> >> Netflix is here now, but many folks seem to use =E2=80=9CO2 TV Air=E2=80= =9D, which is a >> way to watch ordinary cable packages over any Internet connection (not j= ust >> from O2). SD streams are 3Mbit and HD 6Mbit. Weirdly, they don=E2=80=99t= pace out >> their data but there=E2=80=99s a characteristic =E2=80=9Cpulsing=E2=80= =9D of the streams every 5 >> seconds that when I see it on the router's throughput graph I know, yep, >> that=E2=80=99s O2 TV. I=E2=80=99ll find out if their on-demand stuff has= such a co-location >> option. >> >> https://openconnect.netflix.com/en/ >> >> 2) If the members voted for more backhaul, the costs are understandable= =E2=80=A6 >> >> >> Backhaul upgrades are coming into focus gradually, and upgrading those >> ALIX boxes which are tanks but...tanks. >> > > apu2s are thus far being tanks for me. wndr3800s with multi-year cerowrt > uptimes now exist, too. > > >> >> I think some of the higher costs come from physical installations / >> placement rights. Surprising what towers can cost. >> >> 3) Philosophically I vastly prefer the concept of "everyone sharing >> the network", rather than rate plans, to create some market tension as >> to the available bandwidth at any given time of day. >> >> >> Agree wholeheartedly. Rate limiting members isn=E2=80=99t necessary for = a >> non-profit (no profit motive) and especially if we can get fairness righ= t, >> there=E2=80=99s no technical reason to do it that I know of either. >> >> > It would be a better world if more isps served their users and didn't buy > film studios. > > >> ubnt did add at least airtime fairness to airos a year or two back. It >> was not on by default. Their "TDMA" qos system was this insane mess of >> sfq rules when I tore it apart.... 8 years back. >> >> >> I don=E2=80=99t know what they=E2=80=99re doing in their newer AC stuff,= but I'm >> surprised by what appears to be ~6-8ms latency >> > > Something fq_codel-like is now in qualcomms proprietary firmware I'm told= . > No ecn > Which qca chipset ? Which version of the firmware ? > > >> under load on the NanoStation 5 AC Loco=E2=80=99s I got for the camp=E2= =80=99s backhaul. >> Is it really that good? This is in contrast to the 50+ms I see with rrul= _be >> on the NanoStation M5 (without controlling the queue). >> > > ubnt both cases? doubt it's the same bandwidth both cases. should be > proportional to the latency you are seeing. running 2x2 incurs a latency > penalty also. > > >> This test is straight AP to AP though, with probably 1 flow up and 1 dow= n >> plus ping, so I want to get 2-4 more of these and do rrul_be through the >> Ethernet ports, to get more flows and UDP, and see how it looks then. >> > > Run more flows. SFQ is per packet fq. They have right-sized buffers when > the link is running at close to the configured rate, not when it's > stuggling. > > I also seem to remember they reduced the txop to ~2ms. turned off 802.11e= . > I've recommended this for years now in the general case. > > Their 100mbit ethernet devices also do flow control and are more often th= e > bottleneck than not, so the wifi runs empty more often. > > I LIKE their gear. Despite all we've done here there are still things the= y > do better. > > >> >> >> > > -- > > Dave T=C3=A4ht > CEO, TekLibre, LLC > http://www.teklibre.com > Tel: 1-669-226-2619 > > _______________________________________________ > Cake mailing list > Cake@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cake > > --000000000000cfccc005721ce8f5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Jul 28, 2018 at 11:03 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com= > wrote:

<= br>
On Sat, Jul= 28, 2018 at 11:39 AM Pete Heist <pete@heistp.net> wrote:

On Jul 28, 2018, at 7:32 PM, Dave = Taht <dave.taht= @gmail.com> wrote:

Exac= tly. Many members, including myself, are limited by our CPE links during of= f hours, and by the backhaul during high traffic hours.
3 items

1) Co-locating some essential services (like netflix) might= be of help.

That=E2=80=99s= a good idea, will bring that up with the admins.

= Netflix is here now, but many folks seem to use =E2=80=9CO2 TV Air=E2=80=9D= , which is a way to watch ordinary cable packages over any Internet connect= ion (not just from O2). SD streams are 3Mbit and HD 6Mbit. Weirdly, they do= n=E2=80=99t pace out their data but there=E2=80=99s a characteristic =E2=80= =9Cpulsing=E2=80=9D of the streams every 5 seconds that when I see it on th= e router's throughput graph I know, yep, that=E2=80=99s O2 TV. I=E2=80= =99ll find out if their on-demand stuff has such a co-location option.


apu2s are thus far being tanks for me. wndr3800s with multi-year cerowrt = uptimes now exist, too.
=C2=A0

I think some of the higher costs come fro= m physical installations / placement rights. Surprising what towers can cos= t.

3) Philosophically I vastly= prefer the concept of "everyone sharing
the network", rather = than rate plans, to create some market tension as
to the available bandw= idth at any given time of day.

= Agree wholeheartedly. Rate limiting members isn=E2=80=99t necessary for a n= on-profit (no profit motive) and especially if we can get fairness right, t= here=E2=80=99s no technical reason to do it that I know of either.

It would be a better w= orld if more isps served their users and didn't buy film studios.
=
=C2=A0
ubnt did add at least airtime fairness to airos a ye= ar or two back. It
was not on by default. Their "TDMA" qos sys= tem was this insane mess of
sfq rules when I tore it apart.... 8 years b= ack.

I don=E2=80=99t know what t= hey=E2=80=99re doing in their newer AC stuff, but I'm surprised by what= appears to be ~6-8ms latency

Something fq_codel= -like is now in qualcomms proprietary firmware I'm told. No ecn


=

I also seem to remember they reduced the txop to ~2ms. = turned off 802.11e. I've recommended this for years now in the general = case.=C2=A0

Their 100mbit ethernet devices also do= flow control and are more often the bottleneck than not, so the wifi runs = empty more often.=C2=A0

I LIKE their gear. Despite= all we've done here there are still things they do better.
= =C2=A0

=


=

--

Dave T=C3=A4ht
CEO, Te= kLibre, LLC
http:/= /www.teklibre.com
Tel: 1-669-226-2619

_______________________________________________
Cake mailing list
Cake@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cake


--000000000000cfccc005721ce8f5--