From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 010AB3B2BC; Sat, 4 Jun 2016 11:03:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hms-beagle.lan ([93.237.69.26]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MXqV1-1awkO22nqh-00WnMF; Sat, 04 Jun 2016 17:03:09 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: moeller0 In-Reply-To: <0CB3F4FC-5AC2-4B13-8CC5-B6593AAEBD6E@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2016 17:03:08 +0200 Cc: Andrew McGregor , cake@lists.bufferbloat.net, "codel@lists.bufferbloat.net" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <22371476-B45C-4E81-93C0-D39A67639EA0@gmx.de> <857AEE56-E7DB-4981-B32E-82473F877139@gmail.com> <8AB0D25D-C1CA-45F1-889E-2F73CF8C44F7@gmail.com> <323AFC22-A092-4F59-8197-AF21EF73FD58@gmail.com> <274D3A0FA900FD47AA6B56991AAA32FDC5529FC8@wtl-exchp-1.sandvine.com> <574478B4.7080103@taht.net> <39F38477-A877-4C1B-9B7F-BB3358425F17@gmail.com> <0eb223f9-2873-7f53-c2ce-c6867ddec17c@gmail.com> <48A25043-19E2-4BB7-B634-A4003F7BE6F8@gmail.com> <01BEA343-7C07-46FA-8DC4-07BF26309FC8@gmail.com> <0CB3F4FC-5AC2-4B13-8CC5-B6593AAEBD6E@gmail.com> To: Jonathan Morton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:FKhLhVDJuIhZOYIggJ/KFfWlYVSgKCccodolamCLPOHVvY4t3Hs cwVLMYNuepUetoMEa7duyppPYqem1XC8DdKfL9Zf1ZoJHPwTgeA5mDxIF9wqqARECqs9yeo LWJAEhKOLwXS6y8yG2ejAvQNarSlc7aqrEHY+wIowj2UR/3fKGLSMiR+NSQ5N6B3X98vE9o v848kv1Jw+zTh5Dfubnow== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:plLXsaOyZmM=:nx+kAFme5f+00VH2iXII+V JvryumnUYTlh4NSjs/LYKjrjJ3C8hS0jxfJvXji6TsfbXx7Jh3jGGgqGZ5UyP7dYpdmSNLkY3 Vde8Vis2rn/dntLRNUFNyh50wlRzIniw/baDSK5hgvFWJ9l1ZifTIew0sXF93tEwN7Oz7G4d9 DmHQUwWu5Uj5VEGP/bA4PrNwlhELZ8ZroWJ6cgvsj1l4Z2Qfr/bkuTtpa6Xsp6uVeEjuPuaZD rIyCbQL+3x0mFov7oFeAkO5fBxpv1B8V8ZVFdKxvgTRhZKM+IA8UkxeAtGFfkz3bXmlRUmDuC Qo6zW2S+SofImVEC5T/N7V8/pT+yENL5I7Yzd4VC+4uOHTtQt6j0bp37OWPQFpt8am6x+syuV wFyLgdO2gZQ17Gwzh/sDKudRX8Sf/o8dQ6TzVSjr7Lts6DPp346Lfyv8p+SfmLNWmUY6cbwsA lK3wcLVSD+HCn22DaMl4SnxY/cA5CU+4l6K1q6Mcz7lCGMhLP7QEmr4TaV95f2dklCMxdW1rz txCxzh5SCj1fVN8/5CqH3iWObn/vO5xTSNRzjm2KWEVIAaj9zU6BCi14xumvh0vTlSNhCGXZz 5WABkNS7aEK4F4XE0a9Vm+stQcDVVht2UKhSzd+cQC5FYNZFNhZo2Yhs2KGzXUzzJaajX7T5K 09YoThAxUZJbwbFn0LB6RwxKvavUeWATt1oVhXNhAe+jPAHZ5RU0X3An+qZXSfNz0xsMDv+S0 l25TMsahoLdbkHTLmwSsbcFUR9TFSd/TGtcCxOgFyey5lPmJcBSJNOtP0e2csqx3HbAoqM96V TVpnJ/e Subject: Re: [Cake] [Codel] Proposing COBALT X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2016 15:03:12 -0000 Hi Jonathan, > On Jun 4, 2016, at 16:16 , Jonathan Morton = wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On 4 Jun, 2016, at 17:01, moeller0 wrote: >>=20 >> Maybe cake should allow to switch from the default mark by ECN policy = to mark by drop per command line argument? At least that would allow = much easier in the field testing=E2=80=A6 As is there is only the option = of disabling ECN at the endpoint(s)=E2=80=A6 >=20 > I consider ignoring ECN in the way I described to be a fault condition = inevitably resulting in unresponsive traffic. As a fault condition, it = should be rare. Operative word being =E2=80=9Cshould=E2=80=9D in my opinion; as = long as we have no reliable statistics either way, assuming rarity seems = overly optimistic to me. Not giving the user control over policy = requires the default policy to be almost 100% applicable., here we have = a demonstrated case where this requirement seems violated. Make out of = that what you want, if cake were my project I would make ECN versus drop = configurable at the qdisc, as the control via the endhosts seems = comparatively tedious, especially for quick comparative testing. But = cake is not my project, so all I can do is try to make a case for = introducing a policy control toggle=E2=80=A6 >=20 > The main effect in practice is that the RTT for the affected flows = grows well beyond normal, but since they are bulk transfers, > this has only a minor detrimental effect (much of which is incurred = sender-side in the form of retransmission buffers two orders of = magnitude larger than necessary). >=20 > Rather than further complicate Codel or Cake, I=E2=80=99d like to = simply apply a general solution for unresponsive traffic, ie. COBALT. If adding a toggle for ECN versus drop is your only concern in = the complexity of cake=E2=80=99s configuration you have not been reading = my arguments regarding the labyrinthian overhead keywords=E2=80=A6 = Really not exposing this control for this might actually be a reasonable = thing to do, but trying to =E2=80=9Cblame=E2=80=9D this on added = complexity seems far fetched=E2=80=A6 but what do I know=E2=80=A6 Best Regards Sebastian >=20 > - Jonathan Mortob >=20