From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm0-x229.google.com (mail-wm0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 53DE63BA8E for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2018 11:45:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x229.google.com with SMTP id n5-v6so316120wmc.5 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2018 08:45:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heistp.net; s=google; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references :to; bh=UOWVgco1KQoYmKZ/L2yotU4dHyXUM0ro8Vwu6B/6JBw=; b=H29POJbz71xVQppyShiXkyJEWDTz01c85p1vvLSqVu8cx/daWI+XTZFd+QGzvYF/V+ 4Oh7hlQJZiqb85Dvz3QxNnJnu66bwEaV918csWMOckthcXD0cT59SeF14lV57HA3vGfi xhADkRJX8QxHV+CpBaKvYXDXkLnS7DPjCGvqAOw1C47g7EGPpV8EwyxLkZtyOqgQlvLp EBgQpa7bdVE2BG4WsNDCGP/HQfVrl9Vl3fQdiJkUtEOnO+veoZ1RkmZ7mXDXhpPnnzic IhQJMkbZ1xutNOj7Bqo/agYm9VvfUd8fV32R2fZSR8Hpcrmy7nAvO81p1Sahcr7eD5z/ aC3w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=UOWVgco1KQoYmKZ/L2yotU4dHyXUM0ro8Vwu6B/6JBw=; b=QmsrPF809TZI6UOo0UMb3l7W8gOU4FSy1AkwIm43uAaBq5ufclt8CdLFPCL3Vzd5wC U8vdCViEXj53UeB+Mlp6AAuhU5wSmQLdDPR5cLzC/hXUafpXiZWBD4v9NBF9L53o/LGY edtiCnQ0lzoj2lUN62nm7MvqYumzn6eDjQSDJlwHQuh7WrT1N7PQG0Awu3wbRMOLXelQ n7MG4svcELPoiZ8J5cBvlvU8rNqzT9P8VfNPcCvf9rzZnPjzHVSnjvlSJXkjMPYN5vTo 44L0Zgd5FyS2Bkr49ha4FAc+7z/xZO36JNmkAYMhCoulai/NYybKl1kXhXrkNniZaGW/ UOOg== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E3lrXtzxZZq/8sWC5/3goVgPYj7h6xcajJsEtv9MM+NFC+WBW7h dMy0I9R4ZH5uF8T3HcN1+M0rKw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKKPyFchf25sxR+7UpHQVtFnME4GKME/343l8s2hl4KCU2Po/nu2BUwtW7sui+k1PMCJORjcWQ== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:150:: with SMTP id 77-v6mr2315224wmb.3.1529509534208; Wed, 20 Jun 2018 08:45:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tron.luk.heistp.net (h-1169.lbcfree.net. [185.193.85.130]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f133-v6sm3205346wme.42.2018.06.20.08.45.33 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 20 Jun 2018 08:45:33 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FDFD023B-8DF7-40D3-9EDA-7E09AD7C1E6E" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Pete Heist In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 17:45:31 +0200 Cc: Cake List Message-Id: References: To: Dave Taht X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Subject: Re: [Cake] lanman2018 cake talk ideas X-BeenThere: cake@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Cake - FQ_codel the next generation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 15:45:35 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_FDFD023B-8DF7-40D3-9EDA-7E09AD7C1E6E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Jun 18, 2018, at 7:44 PM, Dave Taht wrote: >=20 > Try as I might, finding a memorable narrative hook to fit into 20 > minutes eludes me. There's so much to cake! There's no room for me to > break out a guitar or carry a case of water bottles into this press. To me, explaining this stuff is about trying to connect the technology = with relatable human experience, and asserting/showing that the = continued focus on throughput is misplaced. Is this audience already = aware of that, or not? Maybe test them up front to see how much you need = to talk about it. If you assume they know this and they don=E2=80=99t, = the blank stares will start a minute or two into the talk... If at least some people in the audience need an explanation, or even if = you just want to hammer it home, for this type of crowd (should at least = be somewhat technical), why not make an analogy with the =E2=80=9CMegahert= z myth =E2=80=9D? That = finally died in 2005 with the Pentium Extreme Edition (with the = =E2=80=9CExtreme=E2=80=9D part not describing its speed, but rather its = flirtation with thermal limits), when AMD came out with a =E2=80=9Cslower=E2= =80=9D CPU that was actually faster. Finally there was an awareness that = ah, it=E2=80=99s not just clock speed, it=E2=80=99s pipelines, it=E2=80=99= s caching, it=E2=80=99s branch prediction, it=E2=80=99s the instruction = set, it=E2=80=99s=E2=80=A6complicated, and there=E2=80=99s no getting = around it. Let=E2=80=99s start arguing that there=E2=80=99s an analogous =E2=80=9CMeg= abit myth=E2=80=9D that has no Wikipedia page yet because it persists to = this day. Analogous to the megahertz myth, it=E2=80=99s not just = =E2=80=9Cmegabits per second=E2=80=9D, but it=E2=80=99s inter-flow = latency, it=E2=80=99s intra-flow latency, it=E2=80=99s fairness, it=E2=80=99= s IPDV, it=E2=80=99s all of this under dynamic loads, = it=E2=80=99s=E2=80=A6complicated. And because it=E2=80=99s a complicated = problem, Cake has a number of solutions built into it, which you=E2=80=99l= l talk about... Perhaps Cake=E2=80=99s mascot should be a multi-headed = creature of some kind (the monster that Eric referred to), maybe a = hydra. Cake is definitely multi-headed. :) If this audience is aware of this already, just move beyond it more = quickly, but it=E2=80=99s worth hammering it home at least a bit, = because again, where=E2=80=99s that "Megabit myth" Wikipedia page? It = doesnt exist, because it hasn=E2=80=99t yet sunk in to the general = consciousness that hey, why are we paying for 50Mbit symmetric fiber = connections that can feel like 5Mbit ADSL? Will the abandonment of network neutrality finally be the =E2=80=9CPentium= Extreme Edition=E2=80=9D that brings the megabit myth to a head? > A principal complaint of the reviewers of the paper was the lack of > real world tests, so I snuck in a couple sides for that and am working > on incorporating the graphs and other text from the paper. I hadn=E2=80=99t noticed that complaint, but it=E2=80=99s legit. RRUL = tests are interesting and point out what =E2=80=9Cshould=E2=80=9D = happen, but long-term =E2=80=9Cbefore and after=E2=80=9D tests on real = networks and backhauls would be real proof. This doesn=E2=80=99t help = you at this late stage in the game, but let=E2=80=99s take that comment = to heart in the future. Meanwhile, do we have any quotes from users on = how it improved their experience, or is that too anecdotal? or quotes = from people in the field? > What does a ieee lanman2018 audience already grok, what needs to be = explained? That=E2=80=99s a key question, you=E2=80=99ll probably have to feel the = audience out unless someone knows the conference already? > I will be periodically updating the currently very raw >=20 > http://www.taht.net/~d/cake/ieee.odp >=20 > as we go along. Please share your thoughts.... Will do, or also write if you=E2=80=99re in need of something = specific=E2=80=A6 --Apple-Mail=_FDFD023B-8DF7-40D3-9EDA-7E09AD7C1E6E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On Jun 18, 2018, at 7:44 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>= wrote:

Try as I = might, finding a memorable narrative hook to fit into 20
minutes eludes me. There's so much to cake! There's no room = for me to
break out a guitar or carry a case of water = bottles into this press.

To me, explaining this stuff is about trying to = connect the technology with relatable human experience, and = asserting/showing that the continued focus on throughput is misplaced. = Is this audience already aware of that, or not? Maybe test them up front = to see how much you need to talk about it. If you assume they know this = and they don=E2=80=99t, the blank stares will start a minute or two into = the talk...

If at least some people = in the audience need an explanation, or even if you just want to hammer = it home, for this type of crowd (should at least be somewhat technical), = why not make an analogy with the =E2=80=9CMegahertz= myth=E2=80=9D? That finally died in 2005 with the Pentium = Extreme Edition (with the =E2=80=9CExtreme=E2=80=9D part not describing = its speed, but rather its flirtation with thermal limits), when AMD came = out with a =E2=80=9Cslower=E2=80=9D CPU that was actually faster. = Finally there was an awareness that ah, it=E2=80=99s not just clock = speed, it=E2=80=99s pipelines, it=E2=80=99s caching, it=E2=80=99s branch = prediction, it=E2=80=99s the instruction set, it=E2=80=99s=E2=80=A6complic= ated, and there=E2=80=99s no getting around it.

Let=E2=80=99s start arguing that there=E2=80=99s = an analogous =E2=80=9CMegabit myth=E2=80=9D that has no Wikipedia page = yet because it persists to this day. Analogous to the megahertz myth, = it=E2=80=99s not just =E2=80=9Cmegabits per second=E2=80=9D, but it=E2=80=99= s inter-flow latency, it=E2=80=99s intra-flow latency, it=E2=80=99s = fairness, it=E2=80=99s IPDV, it=E2=80=99s all of this under dynamic = loads, it=E2=80=99s=E2=80=A6complicated. And because it=E2=80=99s a = complicated problem, Cake has a number of solutions built into it, which = you=E2=80=99ll talk about... Perhaps Cake=E2=80=99s mascot should be a = multi-headed creature of some kind (the monster that Eric referred to), = maybe a hydra. Cake is definitely multi-headed. :)

If this audience is aware of this already, just = move beyond it more quickly, but it=E2=80=99s worth hammering it home at = least a bit, because again, where=E2=80=99s that "Megabit myth" = Wikipedia page? It doesnt exist, because it hasn=E2=80=99t yet sunk in = to the general consciousness that hey, why are we paying for 50Mbit = symmetric fiber connections that can feel like 5Mbit ADSL?

Will the abandonment of network neutrality finally = be the =E2=80=9CPentium Extreme Edition=E2=80=9D that brings the megabit = myth to a head?

A principal complaint of the = reviewers of the paper  was the lack of
real world = tests, so I snuck in a couple sides for that and am working
on incorporating the graphs and other text from the paper.

I = hadn=E2=80=99t noticed that complaint, but it=E2=80=99s legit. RRUL = tests are interesting and point out what =E2=80=9Cshould=E2=80=9D = happen, but long-term =E2=80=9Cbefore and after=E2=80=9D tests on real = networks and backhauls would be real proof. This doesn=E2=80=99t help = you at this late stage in the game, but let=E2=80=99s take that comment = to heart in the future. Meanwhile, do we have any quotes from users on = how it improved their experience, or is that too anecdotal? or quotes = from people in the field?

What does a ieee lanman2018 = audience already grok, what needs to be explained?

That=E2=80=99s a key question, you=E2=80=99ll = probably have to feel the audience out unless someone knows the = conference already?

I will be periodically = updating the currently very raw

http://www.taht.net/~d/cake/ieee.odp

as we go along. Please share your thoughts....

Will do, or also write if you=E2=80=99re in need of something = specific=E2=80=A6

= --Apple-Mail=_FDFD023B-8DF7-40D3-9EDA-7E09AD7C1E6E--