From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mout.gmx.net", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass DE-1" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C2EA321F735 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 11:05:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hms-beagle.home.lan ([217.231.210.84]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MRGvT-1X2WLi2oFL-00UXSf; Fri, 01 Aug 2014 20:05:01 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: <13043.1406868668@sandelman.ca> Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 20:04:59 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <00AE9446-35B8-4A09-BA78-840DFC36F1DB@gmx.de> References: <598BFF8C-37B6-4F5B-9F0D-A0D69A1F32B7@gmx.de> <13043.1406868668@sandelman.ca> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:5MNfSONMSV/1NQtgJ67IMoa7pB0KhsosW9opemk+5zzosmknpFJ hGe2yzGZ3tIO4TV/gvrEWEu0CulfvnHARDJoWI5J9aOAOSOFkFF82axqFa1PukexO0HIu5K r89UCfR5uH8+Sn+lyBM4MhBk6bK49+9KgUM+A5ZYVgcL1dRMXFCxnRq+9fMU8K/6v9HvrRn b6fK9KgZuQuBQM0O2Fc/w== Cc: Wes Felter , cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] Ideas on how to simplify and popularize bufferbloat control for consideration. X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2014 18:05:06 -0000 Hi MIchael, On Aug 1, 2014, at 06:51 , Michael Richardson wrote: >=20 > Sebastian Moeller wrote: >> No idea? How would you test this (any command line to try). The = good >> thingg with the ping is that often even the DSLAM responds keeping >> external sources (i.e. hops further away in the network) of = variability >> out of the measurement... >=20 > With various third-party-internet-access ("TPIA" in Canada), the = DSLAM > is operated by the incumbent (monopoly) telco, and the layer-3 first = hop > is connected via PPPoE-VLAN or PPP/L2TP. =20 So they =93own=94 the copper lines connecting each customer to = the DSLAM? And everybody else just rents their DSL service and resells = them? Do they really connect to the DSLAM or to the BRAS? > The incumbent telco has significant > incentive to make the backhaul network as congested and bufferbloated = as > possible, and to mis-crimp cables so that the DSL resyncs at different = speeds > regularly=85 =20 I think in Germany the incumbent has to either rent out the = copper lines to competitors (who can put their own lines cards in DSLAMs = backed by their own back-bone) or rent =93bit-stream=94 access that is = the incumbent handles the DSL part on both ends and passes the traffic = either in the next central office or at specific transit points. I = always assumed competitors renting these services would get much better = guarantees than end-customers, but it seems in Canada the incumbent has = more found ways to evade efficient regulation. > my incumbent telco's commercial LAN extension salesperson > proudly told me how they never drop packets, even when their links are > congested!!! I really hope this is the opinion of a sales person and not the = network operators who really operate the gear in the =93field=94. On the = other hand having sufficient buffering in the DSLAM to never having to = drop a packet sounds quite manly (and a terrible waste of otherwise fine = DRAM chips) ;) >=20 > The Third Party ISP has a large incentive to deploy equipment that = supports > whatever "bandwidth measurement" service we might cook up. As much as I would like to think otherwise, the only way to get = a BMS in the field is if all national regulators require it by law (well = maybe if ITU would bake it into the next xDSL standard that the DSLAM = has to report current line speeds as per SNMP? back to all down stream = devices asking for it). But I am not holding my breath=85 Best Regards Sebastian >=20 > --=20 > Michael Richardson > -on the road- >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20