From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bosmailout03.eigbox.net (bosmailout03.eigbox.net [66.96.187.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7890B3CB35; Fri, 2 Jul 2021 12:11:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bosmailscan02.eigbox.net ([10.20.15.2]) by bosmailout03.eigbox.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1lzLlL-0005m7-UN; Fri, 02 Jul 2021 12:11:31 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alum.mit.edu; s=dkim; h=Sender:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date: Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Cc:To:From:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ZNbMQFqidObv2G+93Pvf3xEdqO4C92zxVliPB8fenmc=; b=Xt47+u1cLWqZe8MYolPn/+tYiz 2aqswUfWAGotnv7ZKHsQLe/jnmAjLcf1b7c/UCsSi1umnU5475H2Xxd98BhcwpEZYZaudIAF5sl2I PqwJb1i6rSxTgPqy9EVFkG7bzbj5DzYg7DLYsqRq6klMSZFX53F98QW9lsrwVhhg9UqO8Jwd8cfps ge6MoX7pkUdgudzmpkIHp/C7o8X3A4ZBh573mLA/eWPeCVvZUbYId4t6IC7AHofqGMp5QciOCa3r9 BwLWSx0eUy0g45L0Z0kRV1X65LXSp600IQdM86b/K5qXeDUbNuj9llX6zbnL+3mbiDWWshwqbmNnU VMiOZP5Q==; Received: from [10.115.3.34] (helo=bosimpout04) by bosmailscan02.eigbox.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1lzLlL-0006OY-L8; Fri, 02 Jul 2021 12:11:31 -0400 Received: from bosauthsmtp07.yourhostingaccount.com ([10.20.18.7]) by bosimpout04 with id QGBU25004099BUA01GBXxJ; Fri, 02 Jul 2021 12:11:31 -0400 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=TK/LSjVa c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=x8qw8EAkfcRkIpZA8Q87Bg==:117 a=x+7tlP9+fMpTIVJEmcsKvw==:17 a=L9H7d07YOLsA:10 a=9cW_t1CCXrUA:10 a=s5jvgZ67dGcA:10 a=e_q4qTt1xDgA:10 a=Wo7qeYC63mUA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=kurRqvosAAAA:8 a=FP58Ms26AAAA:8 a=TRcgf2gIAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=PVlkjBJtAAAA:8 a=jU4qhlNgAAAA:8 a=yBxTPX1S5TtehZbktSkA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=7utUOSbz6MoA:10 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=754n_0F8DONwsszEtDQA:9 a=Q5y-TCT357L7FW6n:21 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=kbxRQ_lfPIoQnHsAj2-A:22 a=Tuz8d9WoyAmcD3mbu7Kv:22 a=boGXJ1g9TDZA5kD0mADd:22 Received: from c-73-222-32-85.hsd1.ca.comcast.net ([73.222.32.85]:52543 helo=SRA6) by bosauthsmtp07.eigbox.net with esmtpa (Exim) id 1lzLlH-0000HE-PG; Fri, 02 Jul 2021 12:11:28 -0400 Reply-To: From: "Dick Roy" To: "'Bob McMahon'" , "'David P. Reed'" Cc: , "'Make-Wifi-fast'" , "'Cake List'" , , "'cerowrt-devel'" , "'bloat'" References: <1625188609.32718319@apps.rackspace.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2021 09:11:17 -0700 Organization: SRA Message-ID: <00EC422F7AF542BA91443E6334D78A2C@SRA6> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_063A_01D76F22.3D650200" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AddvUyVUD1PQsEm0QVGjQW1sFoSXhgACLZOg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE X-EN-UserInfo: f809475445fb8041985048e338e1a001:931c98230c6409dcc37fa7e93b490c27 X-EN-AuthUser: dickroy@intellicommunications.com Sender: "Dick Roy" X-EN-OrigIP: 73.222.32.85 X-EN-OrigHost: c-73-222-32-85.hsd1.ca.comcast.net X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 05 Jul 2021 06:42:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] Due Aug 2: Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2021 16:11:32 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_063A_01D76F22.3D650200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some terminology if one cares: =20 =93Segments=94 are =93transported=94 (Layer 4) =93Packets=94 are =93networked=94 (Layer 3) =93Frames=94 are =93=94data linked=94 (Layer 2) =20 and last but not least =85 =20 =93Streams: flow =93over the air=94 (Layer 1) =20 _____ =20 From: Starlink [mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf = Of Bob McMahon Sent: Thursday, July 1, 2021 9:04 PM To: David P. Reed Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net; Make-Wifi-fast; Cake List; codel@lists.bufferbloat.net; cerowrt-devel; bloat Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug 2: = Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board =20 I think even packets are a network construct. End/end protocols don't = write packets. They mostly make writes() and reads and have no clue about packets. Except for, of course, UDP which you know everything about = being the original designer. Agreed the telemetry is most interesting and a huge void. Curious to = more of your thoughts on it, metrics, etc. Note: iperf 2 has write to read latencies. It requires clock sync. My systems sync to the GPS atomic as the commonNote/ reference. I think = end/end queue depths can be calculated per Little's law (shown below per inP.) https://sourceforge.net/projects/iperf2/ [rjmcmahon@rjm-nas ~]$ iperf -s -i 1=20 ------------------------------------------------------------ Server listening on TCP port 5001 TCP window size: 128 KByte (default) ------------------------------------------------------------ [ 1] local 192.168.1.94%enp2s0 port 5001 connected with 192.168.1.100 = port 59142 (MSS=3D1448) (trip-times) (sock=3D4) (peer 2.1.3-rc) on 2021-07-01 20:57:37 (PDT) [ ID] Interval Transfer Bandwidth Burst Latency avg/min/max/stdev (cnt/size) inP NetPwr Reads=3DDist [ 1] 0.00-1.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec = 0.170/0.153/1.492/0.078 ms (4769/131082) 104 KByte 3674521 = 22841=3D787:18657:2467:623:84:41:66:116 [ 1] 1.00-2.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec = 0.167/0.156/0.434/0.015 ms (4768/131086) 102 KByte 3742630 = 23346=3D1307:18975:2171:578:105:53:56:101 [ 1] 2.00-3.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec = 0.168/0.157/1.337/0.033 ms (4769/131046) 103 KByte 3710006 = 23263=3D1470:18602:2148:725:107:53:60:98 [ 1] 3.00-4.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec = 0.166/0.158/0.241/0.008 ms (4768/131082) 102 KByte 3756478 = 23960=3D1452:19714:2123:449:79:32:38:73 [ 1] 4.00-5.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec = 0.166/0.157/0.247/0.008 ms (4769/131061) 102 KByte 3756193 = 23653=3D1234:19529:2206:439:89:36:44:76 [ 1] 5.00-6.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec = 0.166/0.158/0.245/0.007 ms (4768/131072) 101 KByte 3758826 = 23478=3D1081:19356:2284:535:73:35:39:75 [ 1] 6.00-7.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec = 0.168/0.158/0.283/0.009 ms (4768/131096) 102 KByte 3728988 = 23477=3D1338:19301:1995:535:104:46:59:99 [ 1] 7.00-8.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec = 0.163/0.150/0.400/0.010 ms (4769/131047) 99.7 KByte 3826119 = 23496=3D1213:19404:2101:498:83:57:43:97 [ 1] 8.00-9.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec = 0.158/0.149/0.236/0.008 ms (4768/131082) 96.6 KByte 3951089 = 23652=3D1328:19498:2074:493:77:41:53:88 [ 1] 9.00-10.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec = 0.158/0.149/0.235/0.008 ms (4769/131061) 96.4 KByte 3958720 = 23725=3D1509:19410:2051:463:91:46:47:108 [ 1] 0.00-10.00 sec 5.82 GBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec = 0.165/0.149/1.492/0.028 ms (47685/131072) 101 KByte 3784172 234891=3D12719:192446:21620:5338:892:440:505:931 [rjmcmahon@ryzen3950 iperf2-code]$ iperf -c 192.168.1.94 -i 1 = --trip-times -b 5g -e ------------------------------------------------------------ Client connecting to 192.168.1.94, TCP port 5001 with pid 68866 (1 = flows) Write buffer size: 131072 Byte TCP window size: 85.0 KByte (default) ------------------------------------------------------------ [ 1] local 192.168.1.100%enp4s0 port 59142 connected with 192.168.1.94 = port 5001 (MSS=3D1448) (trip-times) (sock=3D3) (ct=3D0.33 ms) on 2021-07-01 = 20:57:37 (PDT) [ ID] Interval Transfer Bandwidth Write/Err Rtry Cwnd/RTT NetPwr [ 1] 0.00-1.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4770/0 5 295K/111 us 5631373 [ 1] 1.00-2.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0 295K/120 us 5207927 [ 1] 2.00-3.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0 306K/110 us 5681375 [ 1] 3.00-4.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4769/0 0 306K/107 us 5841891 [ 1] 4.00-5.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0 306K/110 us 5681375 [ 1] 5.00-6.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0 306K/109 us 5733498 [ 1] 6.00-7.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4769/0 0 306K/115 us 5435499 [ 1] 7.00-8.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0 306K/111 us 5630192 [ 1] 8.00-9.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4769/0 0 306K/110 us 5682567 [ 1] 9.00-10.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0 306K/109 us 5733498 [rjmcmahon@rjm-nas ~]$ iperf -s -i 1 --histograms=3D10u ------------------------------------------------------------ Server listening on TCP port 5001 with pid 5166 Read buffer size: 128 KByte (Dist bin width=3D16.0 KByte) Enabled rx-histograms bin-width=3D0.010 ms, bins=3D1000 (clients must = use --trip-times) TCP window size: 128 KByte (default) ------------------------------------------------------------ [ 1] local 192.168.1.94%enp2s0 port 5001 connected with 192.168.1.100 = port 59146 (MSS=3D1448) (trip-times) (sock=3D4) (peer 2.1.3-rc) on 2021-07-01 21:01:42 (PDT) [ ID] Interval Transfer Bandwidth Burst Latency avg/min/max/stdev (cnt/size) inP NetPwr Reads=3DDist [ 1] 0.00-1.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec = 0.164/0.149/1.832/0.101 ms (4769/131072) 100 KByte 3809846 = 22370=3D435:17000:3686:1060:77:35:25:52 [ 1] 0.00-1.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=3D10us):cnt(4769)=3D15:3,16:4414,17:227,18:49,19:14,20:11,21:6,22:1= ,23:1,3 5:1,49:1,55:1,67:1,74:1,85:1,90:2,94:1,95:1,97:1,100:1,103:1,104:1,113:1,= 114 :1,115:2,116:1,118:1,119:2,120:1,125:2,126:1,127:1,132:1,133:1,134:1,137:= 2,1 38:1,140:1,142:2,143:1,144:1,149:1,153:1,157:1,159:1,184:1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=3D16/17/133,Outliers=3D352,obl/obu=3D0/0) (1.832 ms/1625198502.626723) [ 1] 1.00-2.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec = 0.156/0.148/0.235/0.006 ms (4768/131094) 95.0 KByte 4018733 = 21762=3D498:16581:2918:1512:75:36:56:86 [ 1] 1.00-2.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=3D10us):cnt(4768)=3D15:6,16:4304,17:287,18:99,19:36,20:21,21:10,22:= 3,23:1, 24:1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=3D16/17/21,Outliers=3D458,obl/obu=3D0/0) (0.235 ms/1625198503.810735) [ 1] 2.00-3.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec = 0.158/0.150/0.515/0.009 ms (4769/131049) 96.2 KByte 3966043 22863=3D528:18422:3099:571:78:36:47:82 [ 1] 2.00-3.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=3D10us):cnt(4769)=3D16:4078,17:416,18:182,19:50,20:23,21:9,22:4,23:= 3,24:1, 27:1,30:1,52:1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=3D16/18/21,Outliers=3D0,obl/obu=3D0/0) = (0.515 ms/1625198505.144479) [ 1] 3.00-4.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec = 0.157/0.149/0.284/0.007 ms (4768/131082) 95.9 KByte 3978135 22766=3D472:18044:3360:646:90:37:51:66 [ 1] 3.00-4.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=3D10us):cnt(4768)=3D15:1,16:4183,17:342,18:159,19:37,20:23,21:13,22= :4,23:3 ,25:1,27:1,29:1 = (5.00/95.00/99.7%=3D16/18/21,Outliers=3D23,obl/obu=3D0/0) (0.284 ms/1625198505.973695) [ 1] 4.00-5.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec = 0.157/0.149/0.381/0.008 ms (4769/131061) 95.9 KByte 3978347 = 22759=3D451:18039:3415:632:57:16:49:100 [ 1] 4.00-5.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=3D10us):cnt(4769)=3D15:1,16:4253,17:287,18:150,19:31,20:11,21:15,22= :6,23:4 ,24:4,25:1,26:1,27:1,28:2,30:1,39:1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=3D16/17/23,Outliers=3D36,obl/obu=3D0/0) (0.381 ms/1625198507.119394) [ 1] 5.00-6.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec = 0.157/0.151/0.222/0.006 ms (4768/131072) 96.0 KByte 3974720 22661=3D422:17875:3411:723:95:29:44:62 [ 1] 5.00-6.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=3D10us):cnt(4768)=3D16:4166,17:405,18:130,19:30,20:21,21:8,22:7,23:= 1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=3D16/17/21,Outliers=3D0,obl/obu=3D0/0) (0.222 ms/1625198508.350409) [ 1] 6.00-7.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec = 0.158/0.150/0.302/0.008 ms (4768/131082) 96.3 KByte 3962779 22723=3D453:17930:3414:699:93:24:33:77 [ 1] 6.00-7.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=3D10us):cnt(4768)=3D16:4179,17:323,18:152,19:50,20:33,21:18,22:6,23= :1,24:2 ,26:1,27:1,28:1,31:1 = (5.00/95.00/99.7%=3D16/18/21,Outliers=3D0,obl/obu=3D0/0) (0.302 ms/1625198509.416997) [ 1] 7.00-8.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec = 0.157/0.150/0.217/0.006 ms (4769/131061) 96.0 KByte 3974060 22923=3D489:18132:3533:568:78:23:36:64 [ 1] 7.00-8.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=3D10us):cnt(4769)=3D16:4228,17:317,18:137,19:45,20:21,21:14,22:7 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=3D16/17/21,Outliers=3D0,obl/obu=3D0/0) (0.217 ms/1625198510.34875) [ 1] 8.00-9.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec = 0.158/0.150/0.363/0.009 ms (4768/131072) 96.3 KByte 3960477 = 22677=3D472:17988:3377:533:92:50:64:101 [ 1] 8.00-9.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=3D10us):cnt(4768)=3D16:4194,17:253,18:173,19:62,20:32,21:27,22:12,2= 3:8,24: 3,25:2,28:1,37:1 = (5.00/95.00/99.7%=3D16/18/23,Outliers=3D0,obl/obu=3D0/0) (0.363 ms/1625198511.392746) [ 1] 9.00-10.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec = 0.156/0.150/0.232/0.005 ms (4768/131082) 95.5 KByte 3993997 = 23174=3D396:18593:3590:461:50:13:25:46 [ 1] 9.00-10.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=3D10us):cnt(4768)=3D16:4378,17:234,18:113,19:21,20:10,21:6,22:4,24:= 2 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=3D16/17/20,Outliers=3D0,obl/obu=3D0/0) (0.232 ms/1625198512.528385) [ 1] 0.00-10.00 sec 5.82 GBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec = 0.158/0.148/1.832/0.033 ms (47685/131072) 96.3 KByte 3961002 226681=3D4616:178607:33803:7405:785:299:430:736 [ 1] 0.00-10.00 sec F8(f)-PDF: bin(w=3D10us):cnt(47685)=3D15:11,16:42378,17:3091,18:1344,19:376,20:206,2= 1:126,2 2:54,23:22,24:13,25:4,26:2,27:4,28:4,29:1,30:2,31:1,35:1,37:1,39:1,49:1,5= 2:1 ,55:1,67:1,74:1,85:1,90:2,94:1,95:1,97:1,100:1,103:1,104:1,113:1,114:1,11= 5:2 ,116:1,118:1,119:2,120:1,125:2,126:1,127:1,132:1,133:1,134:1,137:2,138:1,= 140 :1,142:2,143:1,144:1,149:1,153:1,157:1,159:1,184:1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=3D16/17/22,Outliers=3D279,obl/obu=3D0/0) (1.832 ms/1625198502.626723) [rjmcmahon@ryzen3950 iperf2-code]$ iperf -c 192.168.1.94 -i 1 = --trip-times -b 5g -e=20 ------------------------------------------------------------ Client connecting to 192.168.1.94, TCP port 5001 with pid 69171 (1 = flows) Write buffer size: 131072 Byte TCP window size: 85.0 KByte (default) ------------------------------------------------------------ [ 1] local 192.168.1.100%enp4s0 port 59146 connected with 192.168.1.94 = port 5001 (MSS=3D1448) (trip-times) (sock=3D3) (ct=3D0.30 ms) on 2021-07-01 = 21:01:42 (PDT) [ ID] Interval Transfer Bandwidth Write/Err Rtry Cwnd/RTT NetPwr [ 1] 0.00-1.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4770/0 8 231K/111 us 5631373 [ 1] 1.00-2.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0 240K/120 us 5207927 [ 1] 2.00-3.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0 257K/114 us 5482029 [ 1] 3.00-4.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4769/0 0 257K/110 us 5682567 [ 1] 4.00-5.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0 257K/108 us 5786586 [ 1] 5.00-6.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0 257K/136 us 4595230 [ 1] 6.00-7.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4769/0 0 257K/111 us 5631373 [ 1] 7.00-8.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0 257K/131 us 4770621 [ 1] 8.00-9.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4769/0 0 257K/110 us 5682567 [ 1] 9.00-10.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0 0 257K/110 us 5681375 [ 1] 0.00-10.01 sec 5.82 GBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 47687/0 8 257K/110 us 5676364 [rjmcmahon@ryzen3950 iperf2-code]$=20 Bob=20 =20 On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 6:16 PM David P. Reed = wrote: Well, nice that the folks doing the conference are willing to consider = that quality of user experience has little to do with signalling rate at the physical layer or throughput of FTP transfers. =20 But honestly, the fact that they call the problem "network quality" = suggests that they REALLY, REALLY don't understand the Internet isn't the = hardware or the routers or even the routing algorithms *to its users*. =20 By ignoring the diversity of applications now and in the future, and the fact that we DON'T KNOW what will be coming up, this conference will = likely fall into the usual trap that net-heads fall into - optimizing for some imaginary reality that doesn't exist, and in fact will probably never be what users actually will do given the chance. =20 I saw this issue in 1976 in the group developing the original Internet protocols - a desire to put *into the network* special tricks to = optimize ASR33 logins to remote computers from terminal concentrators (aka remote login), bulk file transfers between file systems on different = time-sharing systems, and "sessions" (virtual circuits) that required logins. And = then trying to exploit underlying "multicast" by building it into the IP = layer, because someone thought that TV broadcast would be the dominant = application. =20 Frankly, to think of "quality" as something that can be "provided" by = "the network" misses the entire point of "end-to-end argument in system = design". Quality is not a property defined or created by The Network. If you want = to talk about Quality, you need to talk about users - all the users at all times, now and into the future, and that's something you can't do if you don't bother to include current and future users talking about what they might expect to experience that they don't experience. =20 There was much fighting back in 1976 that basically involved "network experts" saying that the network was the place to "solve" such issues as quality, so applications could avoid having to solve such issues. =20 What some of us managed to do was to argue that you can't "solve" such issues. All you can do is provide a framework that enables different = uses to *cooperate* in some way. =20 Which is why the Internet drops packets rather than queueing them, and = why diffserv cannot work. (I know the latter is conftroversial, but at the moment, ALL of diffserv attempts to talk about end-to-end applicaiton specific metrics, but = never, ever explains what the diffserv control points actually do w.r.t. what = the IP layer can actually control. So it is meaningless - another violation = of the so-called end-to-end principle). =20 Networks are about getting packets from here to there, multiplexing the underlying resources. That's it. Quality is a whole different thing. = Quality can be improved by end-to-end approaches, if the underlying network = provides some kind of thing that actually creates a way for end-to-end = applications to affect queueing and routing decisions, and more importantly getting "telemetry" from the network regarding what is actually going on with = the other end-to-end users sharing the infrastructure. =20 This conference won't talk about it this way. So don't waste your time. =20 =20 =20 On Wednesday, June 30, 2021 8:12pm, "Dave Taht" = said: > The program committee members are *amazing*. Perhaps, finally, we can > move the bar for the internet's quality metrics past endless, blind > repetitions of speedtest. >=20 > For complete details, please see: > https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/network-quality/ >=20 > Submissions Due: Monday 2nd August 2021, midnight AOE (Anywhere On = Earth) > Invitations Issued by: Monday 16th August 2021 >=20 > Workshop Date: This will be a virtual workshop, spread over three = days: >=20 > 1400-1800 UTC Tue 14th September 2021 > 1400-1800 UTC Wed 15th September 2021 > 1400-1800 UTC Thu 16th September 2021 >=20 > Workshop co-chairs: Wes Hardaker, Evgeny Khorov, Omer Shapira >=20 > The Program Committee members: >=20 > Jari Arkko, Olivier Bonaventure, Vint Cerf, Stuart Cheshire, Sam > Crowford, Nick Feamster, Jim Gettys, Toke Hoiland-Jorgensen, Geoff > Huston, Cullen Jennings, Katarzyna Kosek-Szott, Mirja Kuehlewind, > Jason Livingood, Matt Mathias, Randall Meyer, Kathleen Nichols, > Christoph Paasch, Tommy Pauly, Greg White, Keith Winstein. >=20 > Send Submissions to: network-quality-workshop-pc@iab.org. >=20 > Position papers from academia, industry, the open source community and > others that focus on measurements, experiences, observations and > advice for the future are welcome. Papers that reflect experience > based on deployed services are especially welcome. The organizers > understand that specific actions taken by operators are unlikely to be > discussed in detail, so papers discussing general categories of > actions and issues without naming specific technologies, products, or > other players in the ecosystem are expected. Papers should not focus > on specific protocol solutions. >=20 > The workshop will be by invitation only. Those wishing to attend > should submit a position paper to the address above; it may take the > form of an Internet-Draft. >=20 > All inputs submitted and considered relevant will be published on the > workshop website. The organisers will decide whom to invite based on > the submissions received. Sessions will be organized according to > content, and not every accepted submission or invited attendee will > have an opportunity to present as the intent is to foster discussion > and not simply to have a sequence of presentations. >=20 > Position papers from those not planning to attend the virtual sessions > themselves are also encouraged. A workshop report will be published > afterwards. >=20 > Overview: >=20 > "We believe that one of the major factors behind this lack of progress > is the popular perception that throughput is the often sole measure of > the quality of Internet connectivity. With such narrow focus, people > don=92t consider questions such as: >=20 > What is the latency under typical working conditions? > How reliable is the connectivity across longer time periods? > Does the network allow the use of a broad range of protocols? > What services can be run by clients of the network? > What kind of IPv4, NAT or IPv6 connectivity is offered, and are there firewalls? > What security mechanisms are available for local services, such as = DNS? > To what degree are the privacy, confidentiality, integrity and > authenticity of user communications guarded? >=20 > Improving these aspects of network quality will likely depend on > measurement and exposing metrics to all involved parties, including to > end users in a meaningful way. Such measurements and exposure of the > right metrics will allow service providers and network operators to > focus on the aspects that impacts the users=92 experience most and at > the same time empowers users to choose the Internet service that will > give them the best experience." >=20 >=20 > -- > Latest Podcast: > = https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/= >=20 > Dave T=E4ht CTO, TekLibre, LLC > _______________________________________________ > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel >=20 _______________________________________________ Make-wifi-fast mailing list Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast This electronic communication and the information and any files = transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for = the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by = privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are = not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the = e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, = copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this = e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please = return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed copy of it. ------=_NextPart_000_063A_01D76F22.3D650200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Some terminology if one = cares:

 

“Segments” are = “transported” =A0=A0=A0(Layer 4)

“Packets” are = “networked”=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 (Layer 3)

“Frames” are = “”data linked”=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 (Layer 2)

 

and last but not least = …

 

“Streams: flow “over = the air”=A0=A0=A0=A0 (Layer 1)

 

From: = Starlink [mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf Of Bob McMahon
Sent: Thursday, July 1, = 2021 9:04 PM
To: David P. Reed
Cc: = starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net; Make-Wifi-fast; Cake List; codel@lists.bufferbloat.net; cerowrt-devel; = bloat
Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug 2: Internet Quality workshop = CFP for the internet architecture board

 

I think even = packets are a network construct. End/end protocols don't write packets.  They mostly make writes() and reads and have no clue about packets. = Except for, of course, UDP which you know everything about being the = original designer.

Agreed the telemetry is most interesting and a huge void. Curious to = more of your thoughts on it, metrics, etc.

Note: iperf 2 has write to read latencies. It requires clock sync. My = systems sync to the GPS atomic as the commonNote/ reference. I think end/end = queue depths can be calculated per Little's law (shown below per = inP.) https://sourceforge.net= /projects/iperf2/

[rjmcmahon@rjm-nas ~]$ iperf -s -i 1
------------------------------------------------------------
Server listening on TCP port 5001
TCP window size:  128 KByte (default)
------------------------------------------------------------
[  1] local 192.168.1.94%enp2s0 port 5001 connected with = 192.168.1.100 port 59142 (MSS=3D1448) (trip-times) (sock=3D4) (peer 2.1.3-rc) on = 2021-07-01 20:57:37 (PDT)
[ ID] Interval        Transfer   =  Bandwidth    Burst Latency avg/min/max/stdev (cnt/size) inP NetPwr  Reads=3DDist
[  1] 0.00-1.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.170/0.153/1.492/0.078 ms (4769/131082)  104 KByte 3674521  22841=3D787:18657:2467:623:84:41:66:116
[  1] 1.00-2.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.167/0.156/0.434/0.015 ms (4768/131086)  102 KByte 3742630  23346=3D1307:18975:2171:578:105:53:56:101
[  1] 2.00-3.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.168/0.157/1.337/0.033 ms (4769/131046)  103 KByte 3710006  23263=3D1470:18602:2148:725:107:53:60:98
[  1] 3.00-4.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.166/0.158/0.241/0.008 ms (4768/131082)  102 KByte 3756478  23960=3D1452:19714:2123:449:79:32:38:73
[  1] 4.00-5.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.166/0.157/0.247/0.008 ms (4769/131061)  102 KByte 3756193  23653=3D1234:19529:2206:439:89:36:44:76
[  1] 5.00-6.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec =  0.166/0.158/0.245/0.007 ms (4768/131072)  101 KByte 3758826  23478=3D1081:19356:2284:535:73:35:39:75
[  1] 6.00-7.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.168/0.158/0.283/0.009 ms (4768/131096)  102 KByte 3728988  23477=3D1338:19301:1995:535:104:46:59:99
[  1] 7.00-8.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.163/0.150/0.400/0.010 ms (4769/131047) 99.7 KByte 3826119  23496=3D1213:19404:2101:498:83:57:43:97
[  1] 8.00-9.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.158/0.149/0.236/0.008 ms (4768/131082) 96.6 KByte 3951089  23652=3D1328:19498:2074:493:77:41:53:88
[  1] 9.00-10.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.158/0.149/0.235/0.008 ms (4769/131061) 96.4 KByte 3958720  23725=3D1509:19410:2051:463:91:46:47:108
[  1] 0.00-10.00 sec  5.82 GBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.165/0.149/1.492/0.028 ms (47685/131072)  101 KByte 3784172  234891=3D12719:192446:21620:5338:892:440:505:931

[rjmcmahon@ryzen3950 iperf2-code]$ iperf -c 192.168.1.94 -i 1 = --trip-times -b 5g -e
------------------------------------------------------------
Client connecting to 192.168.1.94, TCP port 5001 with pid 68866 (1 = flows)
Write buffer size: 131072 Byte
TCP window size: 85.0 KByte (default)
------------------------------------------------------------
[  1] local 192.168.1.100%enp4s0 port 59142 connected with = 192.168.1.94 port 5001 (MSS=3D1448) (trip-times) (sock=3D3) (ct=3D0.33 ms) on = 2021-07-01 20:57:37 (PDT)
[ ID] Interval        Transfer   =  Bandwidth       Write/Err  Rtry     Cwnd/RTT   =      NetPwr
[  1] 0.00-1.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec =  4770/0          5      295K/111 us =  5631373
[  1] 1.00-2.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec =  4768/0          0      295K/120 us  5207927
[  1] 2.00-3.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec =  4768/0          0      306K/110 us  5681375
[  1] 3.00-4.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec =  4769/0          0      306K/107 us  5841891
[  1] 4.00-5.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec =  4768/0          0      306K/110 us  5681375
[  1] 5.00-6.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec =  4768/0          0      306K/109 us  5733498
[  1] 6.00-7.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec =  4769/0          0      306K/115 us  5435499
[  1] 7.00-8.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec =  4768/0          0      306K/111 us  5630192
[  1] 8.00-9.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec =  4769/0          0      306K/110 us  5682567
[  1] 9.00-10.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec =  4768/0          0      306K/109 us  5733498

[rjmcmahon@rjm-nas ~]$ iperf -s -i 1 --histograms=3D10u
------------------------------------------------------------
Server listening on TCP port 5001 with pid 5166
Read buffer size:  128 KByte (Dist bin width=3D16.0 KByte)
Enabled rx-histograms bin-width=3D0.010 ms, bins=3D1000 (clients must = use --trip-times)
TCP window size:  128 KByte (default)
------------------------------------------------------------
[  1] local 192.168.1.94%enp2s0 port 5001 connected with = 192.168.1.100 port 59146 (MSS=3D1448) (trip-times) (sock=3D4) (peer 2.1.3-rc) on = 2021-07-01 21:01:42 (PDT)
[ ID] Interval        Transfer   =  Bandwidth    Burst Latency avg/min/max/stdev (cnt/size) inP NetPwr  Reads=3DDist
[  1] 0.00-1.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.164/0.149/1.832/0.101 ms (4769/131072)  100 KByte 3809846  22370=3D435:17000:3686:1060:77:35:25:52
[  1] 0.00-1.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=3D10us):cnt(4769)=3D15:3,16:4414,17:227,18:49,19:14,20:11,21:6,22:1= ,23:1,35:1,49:1,55:1,67:1,74:1,85:1,90:2,94:1,95:1,97:1,100:1,103:1,104:1= ,113:1,114:1,115:2,116:1,118:1,119:2,120:1,125:2,126:1,127:1,132:1,133:1,= 134:1,137:2,138:1,140:1,142:2,143:1,144:1,149:1,153:1,157:1,159:1,184:1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=3D16/17/133,Outliers=3D352,obl/obu=3D0/0) (1.832 ms/1625198502.626723)
[  1] 1.00-2.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.156/0.148/0.235/0.006 ms (4768/131094) 95.0 KByte 4018733  21762=3D498:16581:2918:1512:75:36:56:86
[  1] 1.00-2.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=3D10us):cnt(4768)=3D15:6,16:4304,17:287,18:99,19:36,20:21,21:10,22:= 3,23:1,24:1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=3D16/17/21,Outliers=3D458,obl/obu=3D0/0) (0.235 ms/1625198503.810735)
[  1] 2.00-3.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.158/0.150/0.515/0.009 ms (4769/131049) 96.2 KByte 3966043  22863=3D528:18422:3099:571:78:36:47:82
[  1] 2.00-3.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=3D10us):cnt(4769)=3D16:4078,17:416,18:182,19:50,20:23,21:9,22:4,23:= 3,24:1,27:1,30:1,52:1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=3D16/18/21,Outliers=3D0,obl/obu=3D0/0) (0.515 = ms/1625198505.144479)
[  1] 3.00-4.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec =  0.157/0.149/0.284/0.007 ms (4768/131082) 95.9 KByte 3978135 =  22766=3D472:18044:3360:646:90:37:51:66
[  1] 3.00-4.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=3D10us):cnt(4768)=3D15:1,16:4183,17:342,18:159,19:37,20:23,21:13,22= :4,23:3,25:1,27:1,29:1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=3D16/18/21,Outliers=3D23,obl/obu=3D0/0) (0.284 ms/1625198505.973695)
[  1] 4.00-5.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.157/0.149/0.381/0.008 ms (4769/131061) 95.9 KByte 3978347  22759=3D451:18039:3415:632:57:16:49:100
[  1] 4.00-5.00 sec F8-PDF: = bin(w=3D10us):cnt(4769)=3D15:1,16:4253,17:287,18:150,19:31,20:11,21:15,22= :6,23:4,24:4,25:1,26:1,27:1,28:2,30:1,39:1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=3D16/17/23,Outliers=3D36,obl/obu=3D0/0) (0.381 ms/1625198507.119394)
[  1] 5.00-6.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.157/0.151/0.222/0.006 ms (4768/131072) 96.0 KByte 3974720  22661=3D422:17875:3411:723:95:29:44:62
[  1] 5.00-6.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=3D10us):cnt(4768)=3D16:4166,17:405,18:130,19:30,20:21,21:8,22:7,23:= 1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=3D16/17/21,Outliers=3D0,obl/obu=3D0/0) (0.222 = ms/1625198508.350409)
[  1] 6.00-7.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.158/0.150/0.302/0.008 ms (4768/131082) 96.3 KByte 3962779  22723=3D453:17930:3414:699:93:24:33:77
[  1] 6.00-7.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=3D10us):cnt(4768)=3D16:4179,17:323,18:152,19:50,20:33,21:18,22:6,23= :1,24:2,26:1,27:1,28:1,31:1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=3D16/18/21,Outliers=3D0,obl/obu=3D0/0) (0.302 = ms/1625198509.416997)
[  1] 7.00-8.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.157/0.150/0.217/0.006 ms (4769/131061) 96.0 KByte 3974060  22923=3D489:18132:3533:568:78:23:36:64
[  1] 7.00-8.00 sec F8-PDF: = bin(w=3D10us):cnt(4769)=3D16:4228,17:317,18:137,19:45,20:21,21:14,22:7 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=3D16/17/21,Outliers=3D0,obl/obu=3D0/0) (0.217 = ms/1625198510.34875)
[  1] 8.00-9.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.158/0.150/0.363/0.009 ms (4768/131072) 96.3 KByte 3960477  22677=3D472:17988:3377:533:92:50:64:101
[  1] 8.00-9.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=3D10us):cnt(4768)=3D16:4194,17:253,18:173,19:62,20:32,21:27,22:12,2= 3:8,24:3,25:2,28:1,37:1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=3D16/18/23,Outliers=3D0,obl/obu=3D0/0) (0.363 = ms/1625198511.392746)
[  1] 9.00-10.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.156/0.150/0.232/0.005 ms (4768/131082) 95.5 KByte 3993997  23174=3D396:18593:3590:461:50:13:25:46
[  1] 9.00-10.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=3D10us):cnt(4768)=3D16:4378,17:234,18:113,19:21,20:10,21:6,22:4,24:= 2 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=3D16/17/20,Outliers=3D0,obl/obu=3D0/0) (0.232 = ms/1625198512.528385)
[  1] 0.00-10.00 sec  5.82 GBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec  0.158/0.148/1.832/0.033 ms (47685/131072) 96.3 KByte 3961002  226681=3D4616:178607:33803:7405:785:299:430:736
[  1] 0.00-10.00 sec F8(f)-PDF: = bin(w=3D10us):cnt(47685)=3D15:11,16:42378,17:3091,18:1344,19:376,20:206,2= 1:126,22:54,23:22,24:13,25:4,26:2,27:4,28:4,29:1,30:2,31:1,35:1,37:1,39:1= ,49:1,52:1,55:1,67:1,74:1,85:1,90:2,94:1,95:1,97:1,100:1,103:1,104:1,113:= 1,114:1,115:2,116:1,118:1,119:2,120:1,125:2,126:1,127:1,132:1,133:1,134:1= ,137:2,138:1,140:1,142:2,143:1,144:1,149:1,153:1,157:1,159:1,184:1 (5.00/95.00/99.7%=3D16/17/22,Outliers=3D279,obl/obu=3D0/0) (1.832 ms/1625198502.626723)


[rjmcmahon@ryzen3950 iperf2-code]$ iperf -c 192.168.1.94 -i 1 = --trip-times -b 5g -e
------------------------------------------------------------
Client connecting to 192.168.1.94, TCP port 5001 with pid 69171 (1 = flows)
Write buffer size: 131072 Byte
TCP window size: 85.0 KByte (default)
------------------------------------------------------------
[  1] local 192.168.1.100%enp4s0 port 59146 connected with = 192.168.1.94 port 5001 (MSS=3D1448) (trip-times) (sock=3D3) (ct=3D0.30 ms) on = 2021-07-01 21:01:42 (PDT)
[ ID] Interval        Transfer   =  Bandwidth       Write/Err  Rtry     Cwnd/RTT   =      NetPwr
[  1] 0.00-1.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec =  4770/0          8      231K/111 us  5631373
[  1] 1.00-2.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec =  4768/0          0      240K/120 us  5207927
[  1] 2.00-3.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec =  4768/0          0      257K/114 us  5482029
[  1] 3.00-4.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec =  4769/0          0      257K/110 us  5682567
[  1] 4.00-5.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec =  4768/0          0      257K/108 us  5786586
[  1] 5.00-6.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec =  4768/0          0      257K/136 us  4595230
[  1] 6.00-7.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec =  4769/0          0      257K/111 us  5631373
[  1] 7.00-8.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec =  4768/0          0      257K/131 us  4770621
[  1] 8.00-9.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec =  4769/0          0      257K/110 us  5682567
[  1] 9.00-10.00 sec   596 MBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec =  4768/0          0      257K/110 us  5681375
[  1] 0.00-10.01 sec  5.82 GBytes  5.00 Gbits/sec =  47687/0          8      257K/110 us  5676364
[rjmcmahon@ryzen3950 iperf2-code]$

Bob 

 

On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 6:16 PM David P. Reed <dpreed@deepplum.com> = wrote:

Well, nice that the folks = doing the conference  are willing to consider that quality of user experience = has little to do with signalling rate at the physical layer or throughput of = FTP transfers.

 

But honestly, the fact that = they call the problem "network quality" suggests that they REALLY, = REALLY don't understand the Internet isn't the hardware or the routers or even = the routing algorithms *to its users*.

 

By ignoring the diversity = of applications now and in the future, and the fact that we DON'T KNOW what = will be coming up, this conference will likely fall into the usual trap that = net-heads fall into - optimizing for some imaginary reality that doesn't exist, = and in fact will probably never be what users actually will do given the = chance.

 

I saw this issue in 1976 in = the group developing the original Internet protocols - a desire to put *into = the network* special tricks to optimize ASR33 logins to remote computers = from terminal concentrators (aka remote login), bulk file transfers between = file systems on different time-sharing systems, and "sessions" = (virtual circuits) that required logins. And then trying to exploit underlying "multicast" by building it into the IP layer, because someone = thought that TV broadcast would be the dominant = application.

 

Frankly, to think of "quality" as something that can be "provided" by = "the network" misses the entire point of "end-to-end argument in = system design". Quality is not a property defined or created by The = Network. If you want to talk about Quality, you need to talk about users - all the = users at all times, now and into the future, and that's something you can't do if = you don't bother to include current and future users talking about what they = might expect to experience that they don't = experience.

 

There was much fighting = back in 1976 that basically involved "network experts" saying that the = network was the place to "solve" such issues as quality, so applications = could avoid having to solve such issues.

 

What some of us managed to = do was to argue that you can't "solve" such issues. All you can do is = provide a framework that enables different uses to *cooperate* in some = way.

 

Which is why the Internet = drops packets rather than queueing them, and why diffserv cannot = work.

(I know the latter is conftroversial, but at the moment, ALL of diffserv attempts to talk = about end-to-end applicaiton specific metrics, but never, ever explains what = the diffserv control points actually do w.r.t. what the IP layer can = actually control. So it is meaningless - another violation of the so-called = end-to-end principle).

 

Networks are about getting = packets from here to there, multiplexing the underlying resources. That's it. = Quality is a whole different thing. Quality can be improved by end-to-end = approaches, if the underlying network provides some kind of thing that actually = creates a way for end-to-end applications to affect queueing and routing = decisions, and more importantly getting "telemetry" from the network = regarding what is actually going on with the other end-to-end users sharing the = infrastructure.

 

This conference won't talk = about it this way. So don't waste your time.

 

 

 

On Wednesday, June 30, 2021 8:12pm, "Dave = Taht" <dave.taht@gmail.com> said:

> The program committee = members are *amazing*. Perhaps, finally, we can
> move the bar for the internet's quality metrics past endless, = blind
> repetitions of speedtest.
>
> For complete details, please see:
> https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/network-qualit= y/
>
> Submissions Due: Monday 2nd August 2021, midnight AOE (Anywhere On = Earth)
> Invitations Issued by: Monday 16th August 2021
>
> Workshop Date: This will be a virtual workshop, spread over three = days:
>
> 1400-1800 UTC Tue 14th September 2021
> 1400-1800 UTC Wed 15th September 2021
> 1400-1800 UTC Thu 16th September 2021
>
> Workshop co-chairs: Wes Hardaker, Evgeny Khorov, Omer Shapira
>
> The Program Committee members:
>
> Jari Arkko, Olivier Bonaventure, Vint Cerf, Stuart Cheshire, = Sam
> Crowford, Nick Feamster, Jim Gettys, Toke Hoiland-Jorgensen, = Geoff
> Huston, Cullen Jennings, Katarzyna Kosek-Szott, Mirja Kuehlewind,
> Jason Livingood, Matt Mathias, Randall Meyer, Kathleen Nichols,
> Christoph Paasch, Tommy Pauly, Greg White, Keith Winstein.
>
> Send Submissions to: network-quality-workshop-pc@iab.org.
>
> Position papers from academia, industry, the open source community = and
> others that focus on measurements, experiences, observations = and
> advice for the future are welcome. Papers that reflect = experience
> based on deployed services are especially welcome. The = organizers
> understand that specific actions taken by operators are unlikely to = be
> discussed in detail, so papers discussing general categories of
> actions and issues without naming specific technologies, products, = or
> other players in the ecosystem are expected. Papers should not = focus
> on specific protocol solutions.
>
> The workshop will be by invitation only. Those wishing to = attend
> should submit a position paper to the address above; it may take = the
> form of an Internet-Draft.
>
> All inputs submitted and considered relevant will be published on = the
> workshop website. The organisers will decide whom to invite based = on
> the submissions received. Sessions will be organized according = to
> content, and not every accepted submission or invited attendee = will
> have an opportunity to present as the intent is to foster = discussion
> and not simply to have a sequence of presentations.
>
> Position papers from those not planning to attend the virtual = sessions
> themselves are also encouraged. A workshop report will be = published
> afterwards.
>
> Overview:
>
> "We believe that one of the major factors behind this lack of progress
> is the popular perception that throughput is the often sole measure = of
> the quality of Internet connectivity. With such narrow focus, = people
> don’t consider questions such as:
>
> What is the latency under typical working conditions?
> How reliable is the connectivity across longer time periods?
> Does the network allow the use of a broad range of protocols?
> What services can be run by clients of the network?
> What kind of IPv4, NAT or IPv6 connectivity is offered, and are = there firewalls?
> What security mechanisms are available for local services, such as = DNS?
> To what degree are the privacy, confidentiality, integrity and
> authenticity of user communications guarded?
>
> Improving these aspects of network quality will likely depend = on
> measurement and exposing metrics to all involved parties, including = to
> end users in a meaningful way. Such measurements and exposure of = the
> right metrics will allow service providers and network operators = to
> focus on the aspects that impacts the users’ experience most = and at
> the same time empowers users to choose the Internet service that = will
> give them the best experience."
>
>
> --
> Latest Podcast:
> https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:67= 91014284936785920/
>
> Dave T=E4ht CTO, TekLibre, LLC
> _______________________________________________
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
>

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