From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A037D3B29D for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 03:57:35 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1639731451; bh=368VDHih5VnDWiLj/k2SAn91IGiLgMgwlI2Zc38SHo8=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=Pl1gmySM30skNXNgv9PGrRjEiDwBu1JQRNiKrHlpt2n4mdo8l8DQXKx5YPipj8c/x /g2uA9HaMRze1s4/whMx0cxcf+IH61A7P3ruyciIv0PrEFZ4q8CXgAFNOml/zoKOy4 DX+ph6KleKVVS38GMptP7pfugKPorN77BQyPuIGE= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mg6dy-1mHvsL09AE-00hckN; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 09:57:31 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 09:57:29 +0100 Cc: David Lang , cerowrt-devel Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <058CDDA1-ECC0-4E58-8D5D-D0B6A8B58858@gmx.de> References: <1639678615.275317887@apps.rackspace.com> <1639690165.936410589@apps.rackspace.com> <4927o62q-qq3-p947-qopq-89rppp637497@ynat.uz> <7F1B6B98-2DE2-41A3-B47F-30B46E2736FB@gmx.de> To: =?utf-8?Q?Joel_Wir=C4=81mu_Pauling?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:lSNX61m8LFvbkquSlKgP87U5nnAnvFn812U1/5mmZIg4ME/ijdD 0WEVyrb83RngUFzdpT8RwjmrW0I9QwM0j9Jj7ybH7LtkQ2UENhHiXwk4/8MKuW1bh3gKMXD dq48pZ6ic/z7gs8p8ta+KFRViiF6kTjZ1wS4JZ4QKWiQKyHFf7FYuc6mpHRBFeA/XTUrUS+ AKAPTvo+KgsGyJjY4NX4g== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:ZTtR/XdDums=:GupfkWpYDk07eH6pz6ElLB /P+Ngj9VUm9zSDuCKHEofOanI5fw0vxb08UOEJAUmKTv+Ud8qS+ryeFAIUWWQ4x77M8dl2KpT 1rfIOcSGk3vAemYiVE8ow3/0T5uUils4ELFpKXRbGHh4OOIX5pvNqH+Bav0BQE4pab8jpDnc2 b2YaWcaRVolgszlIMywLC9zurzyQPZ0Ck4+mgjVvcdWzXQ5XCEnJxz7yrWsBLtGdD7KUyOwqd qaeeZiDbPylU3fzNPuB0l/GZX4QU0754azWwVG5vSOdJDiyxOK83Bn0Y+C9YmxPqeWX10gxzH hA0IGHda1RKXBfj4V8YXmYyhXhZXUhvVrjk99cHsn6P6magMNmkIAFlfKTlevl+13jhlyijiy ucBM/1uJHeTlTLODOaA8FoSmGFfuufDXVAoqProx57m8h6eFNJ5QoS3j22lj2FM3xxzB78njE qCqmX3ljYNNYY9hv070LPmFIy9a3u+VeNAxKipRiXjoRtQ2mji+lnVZ21natfzwjr8kYf5CsB +JzjZZoCwt6AZ9kDGQ7Mu1mlt1oswo3NI2A8bBPh/5MiAwvzBulZlhYL1eKO5oiYId8AifXeV dhZ2z1WQvxRNBJtJSMI93hzEr7jULEDvNu2ubKNDuKCyaPh96Lk4duUbA/LcJ8wHhRNTA/MVh bX9UZ9fGUrujL8dq5Am0gcrcVci8PK4YF6rI8jWOWdB98u9r6mLwd69wLMacgBg+nBX9Wqy0T XiqscPzw3DCqh2G0bpwj+x/4PK4miXgDx7dm6nO2iQdormZb0QlnowS83rWAFem7F+fLdKITc KuVKak6zgZK+Pi6HJGMw7kdrChKb+SWx8QUL9nZlgHPFT3RsFTLqbE8mzvuvX0dWA1gxfGMKu BbSGXQ8wXnLkb3+ZZTsiSII2un/OaYTU7n6P6/gRRztpmLJKZS+oROGz/FYXTMDbSzNfOjgSS 1ruH81ankKWPNKc/oTc70+nkJOeRmV7h0pZTG2UEjT9OvLgTiVYhu2KUk+OBTxN19vot+1LnR HZwMIiVWVk5mZP0Y+bBLcWPpw7Q4fDQkZlG28EOcCTrVTd8SHlgW+UsBrasbuZ9FfjS1EdJ+8 vRWpweAJAInSJ0= Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] 10gige and 2.5gige X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:57:36 -0000 Hi Joel, > On Dec 17, 2021, at 09:36, Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling = wrote: >=20 > The XG PON ONT units from Nokia/Huawei are coming with only 10G NbaseT = (usually singular port) only in the consumer access space. No SFP+=20 Yes, ISPs are not that keen on distributing SFP/SFP+ modules, but there = are some CPE that already come with SFP ports (AVM's Fritzbox 5530 = Fiber, Telekom's Speedport Pro), IMHO only a question of time until = these or their successors will sport SFP+ cages. I probably should add, = that Germany (in unusual leadership in consumer-focus) actually has a = "router-freedom" rule on the books, requiring ISPs to allow end-users to = use any (compatible) router they like, and there is a current discussion = about extending this right to choose your own also to ONTs; and at least = in the enthusiasts' circles there seems to be a desire to use SFP-type = ONTs to directly add to the router. (Personally I have no strong opinion = on this, and will probably happily use my ISP's ONT once FTTH comes to = my home, but I clearly see others already jumping through hoops to use = SFP-GPON-ONTs). >=20 > We have rolled out XG PON on the PON side to 70% of the country here = (NZ) over the last 2 years. Only a small % of that are actually making = use of the XGPON on the consumer side So these are OLT's then that allow simultaneous GPON and XGPON? = Any idea how much more expensive such OLTs are compared to either pure = GPON or pure XGPON OLT's and do you know whether XGPON capability is = something an ISP needs to pay for per connected customer (so some sort = of per-user license)? > and retailers vary in offering it as a service mainly due to having to = truck roll a new ONT and lack of in home 10G kit on the market. But the = access network is there. Sweet! Sees like a reasonably forward looking deployment! That = is something probably going to happen here as well, but since almost all = CPE are explicitly rented out for an additional fee from the ISP (and = shipping is charged extra) I do not think that the "truck-roll" part is = going to be a big hurdle (not that any ISP here actually offers XGPON, = but at least they are testing it). >=20 > Similar stories in other regions I know of that offer XGPon - lack of = consumer demand, lack of ONTs in the market that are suitable for = residential use. Yah, I am not surprised, you need to invest heavily into the = home network before > 1 Gbps access results in any noticeable = improvement, and IMHO there are diminishing returns for adding more = "bandwidth" to a link. E.g. I am currently on a 100/40 plan, so a far = cry from GPON's local max of 1000/200 let alone XGSPONs yet unkown = rate-plans, but I rarely think "if I only had faster internet access" (I = will still switch to FTTH ASAP, since I would like not having to = bother/monitor the DSL link parameters to check for errors and changes = in sync rates). Best Regards Sebastian >=20 >=20 > On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, 9:18 pm Sebastian Moeller, = wrote: > To add to Joel's point, >=20 > I can do my own catX cable runs and connect sockets/plugs to the = cables, but I lack the tools for fiber-splicing... as cool as that would = be it is going to be hard to justify multi-100s EUR for a splicer.. That = still leaves short distance in the main computing area of an = appartment/house, but I doubt that many consumers have a concentration = high enough to justify the costs even there. >=20 > What I do see over here in Europe, with FTTH-roll out speeding up, is = CPE that offer SFP/SFP+ cages for the WAN side though, SFP+ becoming = more common since ISPs started to deploy XGS-PON (gross 10Gpbs = bidirectionally, after FEC ~8.5 Gbps). >=20 >=20 > Regards > Sebastian >=20 > P.S.: I have not started jumping on the 2.5 Gbps or higher train just = yet, none of my devices seems massively underserved with just 1Gbps yet = (with the potential exception of a single link where >=3D 2Gbps would be = nice since I am one cabe short and >2Gbps would allow to multiplex two = 1Gbps connections over that cable). >=20 >=20 > > On Dec 16, 2021, at 22:57, Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling = wrote: > >=20 > > Yes but as much as I like fibre; it's too fragile for the average = household structured cabling real world use case. Not to mention nothing = consumwe comes with SFP+ in the home space. > >=20 > > On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, 10:43 am David Lang, wrote: > > another valuable featur of fiber for home use is that fiber can't = contribute to=20 > > ground loops the way that copper cables can. > >=20 > > and for the paranoid (like me :-) ) fiber also means that any = electrical=20 > > disaster that happens to one end won't propgate through and fry = other equipment > >=20 > > David Lang > >=20 > > On Thu, 16 Dec 2021, David P. Reed wrote: > >=20 > > > Thanks, That's good to know...The whole SFP+ adapter concept has = seemed to me to be a "tweener" in hardware design space. Too many = failure points. That said, I like fiber's properties as a medium for = distances. > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 2:31pm, "Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling" = said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Heat issues you mention with UTP are gone; with the [ 803.bz ]( = http://803.bz ) stuff (i.e Base-N).=20 > > > It was mostly due to the 10G-Base-T spec being old and out of line = with the SFP+ spec ; which led to higher power consumption than SFP+ = cages were rated to draw and aforementioned heat problems; this is not a = problem with newer kit. > > > It went away with the move to smaller silicon processes and now = UTP based 10G in the home devices are more common and don't suffer from = the fragility issues of the earlier copper based 10G spec. The AQC = chipsets were the first to introduce it but most other vendors have = finally picked it up after 5 years or feet dragging.=20 > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 7:16 AM David P. Reed <[ = dpreed@deepplum.com ]( mailto:dpreed@deepplum.com )> wrote: > > > Yes, it's very cheap and getting cheaper. > > >=20 > > > Since its price fell to the point I thought was cheap, my home has = a 10 GigE fiber backbone, 2 switches in my main centers of computers, = lots of 10 GigE NICs in servers, and even dual 10 GigE adapters in a = Thunderbolt 3 external adapter for my primary desktop, which is a Skull = Canyon NUC. > > >=20 > > > I strongly recommend people use fiber and sfp+ DAC cabling because = twisted pair, while cheaper, actually is problematic at speeds above 1 = Gig - mostly due to power and heat. > > >=20 > > > BTW, it's worth pointing out that USB 3.1 can handle 10 Gb/sec, = too, and USB-C connectors and cables can carry Thunderbolt at higher = rates. Those adapters are REALLY CHEAP. There's nothing inherently = different about the electronics, if anything, USB 3.1 is more complicate = logic than the ethernet MAC. > > >=20 > > > So the reason 10 GigE is still far more expensive than USB 3.1 is = mainly market volume - if 10 GigE were a consumer product, not a = datacenter product, you'd think it would already be as cheap as USB 3.1 = in computers and switches. > > >=20 > > > Since DOCSIS can support up to 5 Gb/s, I think, when will Internet = Access Providers start offering "Cable Modems" that support customers = who want more than "a full Gig"? Given all the current DOCSIS 3 CMTS's = etc. out there, it's just a configuration change.=20 > > >=20 > > > So when will consumer "routers" support 5 Gig, 10 Gig? > > >=20 > > > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 11:20am, "Dave Taht" <[ = dave.taht@gmail.com ]( mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com )> said: > > > > > > > > > > > >> has really got cheap. > > >>=20 > > >> [ = https://www.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter ]( = https://www.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter ) > > >>=20 > > >> On the other hand users are reporting issues with actually using > > >> 2.5ghz cable with this router in particular, halving the achieved = rate > > >> by negotiating 2.5gbit vs negotiating 1gbit. > > >>=20 > > >> [ https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D179145#p897836 ]( = https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D179145#p897836 ) > > >>=20 > > >>=20 > > >> -- > > >> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > >> [ https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org= ]( https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org ) > > >>=20 > > >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > >> [ Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ]( = mailto:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ) > > >> [ https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ]( = https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ) > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > > [ Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ]( = mailto:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ) > > > [ https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ]( = https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel = )_______________________________________________ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > > _______________________________________________ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel >=20