From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp151.iad.emailsrvr.com (smtp151.iad.emailsrvr.com [207.97.245.151]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76D97200619 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2013 22:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp45.relay.iad1a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 374F0902D5; Tue, 9 Jul 2013 01:58:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: OK Received: from legacy19.wa-web.iad1a (legacy19.wa-web.iad1a.rsapps.net [192.168.2.205]) by smtp45.relay.iad1a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 22167901F0; Tue, 9 Jul 2013 01:58:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from reed.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by legacy19.wa-web.iad1a (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12ECC2D5806F; Tue, 9 Jul 2013 01:58:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by apps.rackspace.com (Authenticated sender: dpreed@reed.com, from: dpreed@reed.com) with HTTP; Tue, 9 Jul 2013 01:58:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2013 01:58:57 -0400 (EDT) From: dpreed@reed.com To: "Mikael Abrahamsson" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_20130709015857000000_42094" Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Type: html In-Reply-To: References: <1373223178.486913695@apps.rackspace.com> <1373316621.879922633@apps.rackspace.com> Message-ID: <1373349537.07544049@apps.rackspace.com> X-Mailer: webmail7.0 Cc: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] happy 4th! X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2013 05:58:58 -0000 ------=_20130709015857000000_42094 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0ARegarding Galileo, I think he did not bother trying to convince his enem= ies (who wanted to burn him at the stake, but had to turn to one of his fol= lowers to carry out that revenge). I think he devoted time to explaining h= is ideas to people who were interested in learning about them.=0A =0AHe wro= te a book making his scientific case, and did not spend (waste) time trying= to figure out how to "convert" those that were trying to get the Pope to d= o him in, by using logic.=0A =0AI don't think it is useful to try to convin= ce James Imhofe that global warming has a scientific basis. He is convince= d that it is a "fraud perpetrated by scientists", and *nothing* will change= his mind. If anything, trying to convince him makes him appear to be impo= rtant beyond his importance in the matter.=0A =0AAnd yes, the folks who set= "Internet Land Speed Records" are just as important to the Internet as peo= ple who drive Indycars (a fun thing to watch) contribute to automobile engi= neering.=0A =0AI respect their extremely narrow talents, but not necessaril= y their wisdom outside their narrow field.=0A =0A=0A=0AOn Tuesday, July 9, = 2013 1:48am, "Mikael Abrahamsson" said:=0A=0A=0A=0A> On = Mon, 8 Jul 2013, dpreed@reed.com wrote:=0A> =0A> > I was suggesting that th= ere is no reason to be intimidated.=0A> =0A> I was not intimidated, I just = lacked data to actually reply to the=0A> statement made.=0A> =0A> > And yes= , according to the dictionary definition, they are ignorant - as=0A> > in t= hey don't know what they are talking about, and don't care to.=0A> =0A> I o= bject to the last part of the statement. If you're a person who has=0A> bee= n involved in winning an Internet Land Speed Record you probably care,=0A> = but you're have knowledge for a certain application and a certain purpose,= =0A> which might not be applicable to the common type of home connection us= age=0A> today. It doesn't mean the use case is not important or that person= is=0A> opposing solving bufferbloat problem.=0A> =0A> > As to being constr= uctive, I'm not convinced that these people can be=0A> > convinced that the= ir dismissal of bufferbloat and their idea that=0A> > "goodput" is a useful= Internet concept are incorrect.=0A> =0A> I haven't heard any dismissal of = the problem, only that they optimize for=0A> a different use case, and they= 're concerned that their use case will=0A> suffer if buffers are smaller. T= his is the reason I want data because if=0A> FQ_CODEL gets similar results = then their use case is not hugely negatively=0A> affected, and there is dat= a showing it helps a lot for a lot of other use=0A> cases, then they should= n't have much to worry about and can stop arguing.=0A> =0A> Thinking of Gal= ileo, he didn't walk around saying "the earth revolves=0A> around the sun" = and when people questioned him, he said "check it out for=0A> yourself, pro= ve your point, I don't need to prove mine!", right?=0A> =0A> --=0A> Mikael = Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se=0A> ------=_20130709015857000000_42094 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= Regarding Galileo, I think he did not bother trying to convince his enemies= (who wanted to burn him at the stake, but had to turn to one of his follow= ers to carry out that revenge).  I think he devoted time to explaining= his ideas to people who were interested in learning about them.

=0A

 

=0A

= He wrote a book making his scientific case, and did not spend (waste) time = trying to figure out how to "convert" those that were trying to get the Pop= e to do him in, by using logic.

=0A

&nbs= p;

=0A

I don't think it is useful to try= to convince James Imhofe that global warming has a scientific basis.  = ;He is convinced that it is a "fraud perpetrated by scientists", and *nothi= ng* will change his mind.  If anything, trying to convince him makes h= im appear to be important beyond his importance in the matter.

=0A

 

=0A

An= d yes, the folks who set "Internet Land Speed Records" are just as importan= t to the Internet as people who drive Indycars (a fun thing to watch) contr= ibute to automobile engineering.

=0A

&nb= sp;

=0A

I respect their extremely narrow= talents, but not necessarily their wisdom outside their narrow field.

= =0A

 

=0A=0A

<= br />
On Tuesday, July 9, 2013 1:48am, "Mikael Abrahamsson" <swmike= @swm.pp.se> said:

=0A
=0A=

> On Mon, 8 Jul 2013, dpreed@reed.com w= rote:
>
> > I was suggesting that there is no reason to= be intimidated.
>
> I was not intimidated, I just lacked = data to actually reply to the
> statement made.
>
>= ; > And yes, according to the dictionary definition, they are ignorant -= as
> > in they don't know what they are talking about, and don'= t care to.
>
> I object to the last part of the statement.= If you're a person who has
> been involved in winning an Internet = Land Speed Record you probably care,
> but you're have knowledge fo= r a certain application and a certain purpose,
> which might not be= applicable to the common type of home connection usage
> today. It= doesn't mean the use case is not important or that person is
> opp= osing solving bufferbloat problem.
>
> > As to being co= nstructive, I'm not convinced that these people can be
> > convi= nced that their dismissal of bufferbloat and their idea that
> >= "goodput" is a useful Internet concept are incorrect.
>
>= I haven't heard any dismissal of the problem, only that they optimize for<= br />> a different use case, and they're concerned that their use case w= ill
> suffer if buffers are smaller. This is the reason I want data= because if
> FQ_CODEL gets similar results then their use case is = not hugely negatively
> affected, and there is data showing it help= s a lot for a lot of other use
> cases, then they shouldn't have mu= ch to worry about and can stop arguing.
>
> Thinking of Ga= lileo, he didn't walk around saying "the earth revolves
> around th= e sun" and when people questioned him, he said "check it out for
> = yourself, prove your point, I don't need to prove mine!", right?
> =
> --
> Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se
= >

=0A
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