From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp65.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp65.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.65]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDADA3B2A4 for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 22:21:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp33.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp33.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 9FD2B541A; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 22:21:15 -0400 (EDT) X-SMTPDoctor-Processed: csmtpprox beta Received: from smtp33.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp33.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 997CC54F7; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 22:21:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from app9.wa-webapps.iad3a (relay-webapps.rsapps.net [172.27.255.140]) by smtp33.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 7F72D541A; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 22:21:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender-Id: dpreed@deepplum.com Received: from app9.wa-webapps.iad3a (relay-webapps.rsapps.net [172.27.255.140]) by 0.0.0.0:25 (trex/5.7.12); Mon, 18 Jun 2018 22:21:15 -0400 Received: from deepplum.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by app9.wa-webapps.iad3a (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C9C6C00CD; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 22:21:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by apps.rackspace.com (Authenticated sender: dpreed@deepplum.com, from: dpreed@deepplum.com) with HTTP; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 22:21:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Auth-ID: dpreed@deepplum.com Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 22:21:15 -0400 (EDT) From: "dpreed@deepplum.com" To: "Jonathan Morton" Cc: "Dave Taht" , cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net, "bloat" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_20180618222115000000_93309" Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Type: html In-Reply-To: <8546545A-B1C8-47D8-A822-46C77A2DD5C8@gmail.com> References: <1529339194.276412941@apps.rackspace.com> <1529361825.80979395@apps.rackspace.com> <8546545A-B1C8-47D8-A822-46C77A2DD5C8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1529374875.427530197@apps.rackspace.com> X-Mailer: webmail/15.2.1-RC Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] Invisibility of bufferbloat and its remedies X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 02:21:15 -0000 ------=_20180618222115000000_93309 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0ANo doubt.=0A =0AHowever, sometimes one can get powerful economic forces = to support good ideas.=0A =0AThe entire telecom industry was going after t= he Internet as a concept fiercely in the days of "dialup" Internet access. = Trying to get the government to allow them to price it out of existence, tr= ying to argue that ISDN couldn't be deployed, trying to argue that "selecti= ve content" (AOL) was better than the dangerous open Internet full of kiddy= porn and drug cartels, whereas Ma Bell et al. would deliver clean and whol= esome content only, if the government would just allow them to build the Na= tional Inofmration Superhighway the way it "should be engineered".=0A =0AYe= t, the Internet community routed around all of this, by showing hugely valu= able new ideas that were available instantly, and a vibrant ecosystem of in= novators working for users, not for the big companies.=0A =0AIt's still rea= sonable to continute that path. But it is worth remembering that when Vent= ure Capital joined in, things started to go awry. @Home (done by Milo Medin= - funded by Kleiner Perkins, now at Google) was conceived as a closed, wal= led garden, instituting "web caching" that was supposedly "good for users",= whie at the same time breaking the WWW protocols needed for evolution of t= he Internet, and instituting systematic port blocking that prevented anyone= from creating servers.=0A =0ABut Medin and Kleiner were failures, not gett= ing that openness was at the core of the Internet.=0A =0A-----Original Mess= age-----=0AFrom: "Jonathan Morton" =0ASent: Monday, = June 18, 2018 7:17pm=0ATo: "dpreed@deepplum.com" =0ACc= : "Dave Taht" , cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net, "= bloat" =0ASubject: Re: [Bloat] Invisibility of= bufferbloat and its remedies=0A=0A=0A=0A> On 19 Jun, 2018, at 1:43 am, dpr= eed@deepplum.com wrote:=0A> =0A> So, no, the Network Neutrality people are = NOT the problem with Bufferbloat.=0A=0ANo, but I think it's fair to point t= owards corporate greed and political ignorance as common causes of both pro= blems.=0A=0A - Jonathan Morton=0A=0A ------=_20180618222115000000_93309 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

No doubt.

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However, sometimes one can get power= ful economic forces to  support good ideas.

=0A

&nb= sp;

=0A

The entire telecom industry was going after the = Internet as a concept fiercely in the days of "dialup" Internet access. Try= ing to get the government to allow them to price it out of existence, tryin= g to argue that ISDN couldn't be deployed, trying to argue that "selective = content" (AOL) was better than the dangerous open Internet full of kiddy po= rn and drug cartels, whereas Ma Bell et al. would deliver clean and wholeso= me content only, if the government would just allow them to build the Natio= nal Inofmration Superhighway the way it "should be engineered".

=0A

 

=0A

Yet, the Internet community route= d around all of this, by showing hugely valuable new ideas that were availa= ble instantly, and a vibrant ecosystem of innovators working for users, not= for the big companies.

=0A

 

=0A

=0A

 <= /p>=0A

But Medin and Kleiner were failures, not getting tha= t openness was at the core of the Internet.

=0A

 =0A

-----Original Message-----
From: "Jonathan Morto= n" <chromatix99@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2018 7:17pmTo: "dpreed@deepplum.com" <dpreed@deepplum.com>
Cc: "Dave Tah= t" <dave.taht@gmail.com>, cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net, "bloat= " <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [Bloat] Invisibilit= y of bufferbloat and its remedies

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> On 19 Jun, 2018, at 1:43 am, dpreed@deep= plum.com wrote:
>
> So, no, the Network Neutrality people = are NOT the problem with Bufferbloat.

No, but I think it's fair = to point towards corporate greed and political ignorance as common causes o= f both problems.

- Jonathan Morton

=0A
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