From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp97.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp97.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5147A3B29E for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:18:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp13.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp13.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 19AFA556F; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:18:09 -0400 (EDT) X-SMTPDoctor-Processed: csmtpprox beta Received: from smtp13.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp13.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 12893559E; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:18:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from app53.wa-webapps.iad3a (relay-webapps.rsapps.net [172.27.255.140]) by smtp13.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id F1150556F; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:18:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender-Id: MAILER-DAEMON Received: from app53.wa-webapps.iad3a (relay-webapps.rsapps.net [172.27.255.140]) by 0.0.0.0:25 (trex/5.7.12); Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:18:09 -0400 Received: from deepplum.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by app53.wa-webapps.iad3a (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC0C740046; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:18:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by apps.rackspace.com (Authenticated sender: dpreed@deepplum.com, from: dpreed@deepplum.com) with HTTP; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:18:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:18:08 -0400 (EDT) From: "dpreed@deepplum.com" To: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Joel_Wir=C4=81mu_Pauling?=" Cc: "Dave Taht" , "Jonathan Morton" , cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <1532693888.89877811@apps.rackspace.com> X-Mailer: mobile/6.0.2 Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] =?iso-8859-1?q?So_how_far_behind_is_the_embedded_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?router_world=2C_still=3F?= X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 12:18:09 -0000 In some ways, the quickness is good, beats the old days of ATT monopoly nev= er innovating except over 10 year incremental cycles. But Linux isn't capable of quick innovation. It's too overcomplicated. Too = many parts barely fit together, or don't. Huge config files encoding same i= nfo in inconsistent ways. Poor cross compilation architecture, if there is = one at all. Days long build cycles. Then throw in UEFI which has to be built on Windows to get it right. Not a system that can chase innovation of the small kind. Hardware is now l= ike software in how varied it can be. But software is no longer about flexi= bility of abstraction. Every Linux is a Time Sharing System. -----Original Message----- From: "Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling" Sent: Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 4:34 pm To: "Dave Taht" Cc: "Dave Taht" , "Jonathan Morton" , cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] So how far behind is the embedded router world= , still? Just a note - a lot of this mess is due to China's rapid dev cycles and race to the bottom on cost vs supply. Generally a fab house who is in turn contracted by an OEM in China will have 1 maybe 2 engineers who will do the initial low level C bits required for a product/board. They get it working on whatever build environment they have at hand and chuck it over the fence to product unit who ship it. Then moving onto the next contract never to be seen from again. -Joel On 27 July 2018 at 08:15, Dave Taht wrote: > On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 9:48 AM dpreed@deepplum.com=20 > wrote: > > > > How would one get Linux Foundation to raise money to sponsor a router > software initiative? > > We tried. Personally, having bled out mentally and financially more > than once, I am not up to trying again. They don't return our calls > anymore. > > > I can see that all the current network product OEMs might mass up to > kill it or make it fail. Kind of like coreboot vs. UEFI. > > > > But maybe Facebook or Amazon or Google - dedicated white-box fan > companies - might do it. Or maybe there's a Chinese funding source. > > Well, try to sort through > https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesnycouncil/2018/07/26/ > why-you-should-start-looking-at-googles-flutter-and- > fuchsia-now/#795943a6a309 > > As for china, sure, that would be great. Europe, sure. I think china > has a huge incentive to get into making better firmware in > collaboration with europe. As for america... > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Jonathan Morton"=20 > > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 10:13am > > To: "Mikael Abrahamsson"=20 > > Cc: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] So how fHow wouar behind is the embedded > router world, still? > > > > > On 26 Jul, 2018, at 11:53 am, Mikael Abrahamsson=20 > wrote: > > > > > > they seem to live in a world where you take a linux kernel that's > announced as LTS (in the best of worlds), work on that for 1-2 years duri= ng > which you release an SDK, which then the device manufacturers will take a= nd > start putting their solutions on, which takes another 1-2 years before it > reaches customers. > > > > This in itself sounds like a colossal waste of developer man-hours. > Which really just serves to underline how clueless CPE vendors are - abou= t > their core business, no less. > > > > They obviously have a lot more resources than we do. What could *we* d= o > with that level of funding and organisation? Take six months, and put ou= t > a router that *doesn't* suck for a change! > > > > - Jonathan Morton > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > > > > -- > > Dave T=C3=A4ht > CEO, TekLibre, LLC > http://www.teklibre.com > Tel: 1-669-226-2619 > _______________________________________________ > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel >