From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp100.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp100.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.100]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF9C63CB52; Mon, 29 Mar 2021 16:28:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from app33.wa-webapps.iad3a (relay-webapps.rsapps.net [172.27.255.140]) by smtp37.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 4242F5A82; Mon, 29 Mar 2021 16:28:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from deepplum.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by app33.wa-webapps.iad3a (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E855E1B15; Mon, 29 Mar 2021 16:28:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by apps.rackspace.com (Authenticated sender: dpreed@deepplum.com, from: dpreed@deepplum.com) with HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2021 16:28:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Auth-ID: dpreed@deepplum.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 16:28:11 -0400 (EDT) From: "David P. Reed" To: "Dave Taht" Cc: "bloat" , "cerowrt-devel" , "Make-Wifi-fast" , "Cake List" , "Jason A. Donenfeld" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_20210329162811000000_40463" Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Type: html In-Reply-To: References: X-Client-IP: 209.6.168.128 Message-ID: <1617049691.187521510@apps.rackspace.com> X-Mailer: webmail/18.1.23-RC X-Classification-ID: d95aa609-13c7-4db2-8e69-b263bfb27f7e-1-1 Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] wireguard almost takes a bullet X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:28:11 -0000 ------=_20210329162811000000_40463 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0ADave -=0A =0AI've spent a fair amount of time orbiting the FreeBSD commu= nity over the past few years. It's not as sad as you might think.=0AHowever= , the networking portion of FreeBSD community is quite differently organize= d than it is in Linux.=0A =0AWhat tends to shape Linux and FreeBSD, etc. ar= e the money sources that flow into the communities. Of course Linux is quit= e independently wealthy now. The senior executives of the Linux Foundation = are paid nearly a million dollars a year, each. Which just indicates that = major corporations are seriously interested in controlling the evolution of= Linux (not the Gnu part, the part that has Linus Torvalds at its center).= =0A =0AFreeBSD, in contrast, is a loose alliance of what you might call "em= bedded hardware vendors" like NetApp as an example. They value an open, por= table, efficient operating environment, but not for servers, laptops or sma= rtphones.=0A =0AThey overlap at the intersection of network routing and sto= rage platforms, where Linux doesn't seem to fit well, except in the case of= "home routers".=0A =0AAt least that's my view. The major controllers of ar= chitectural elements are not terribly interested in FreeBSD's positive qual= ities. FreeBSD is not very visible at Intel and ARM at all, interms of thei= r product planning. IBM has no "Power" FreeBSD.=0A =0ATake for example, buf= ferbloat as an issue that routing and switching hardware ought to address. = This is a serious weakness in the FreeBSD community (where it should matter= !) There's not been much demand by the major corporate spenders on FreeBSD = in fixing bufferbloat. But then again, there's not been much visibility reg= arding bufferbloat in the IETF, either. I'm not sure Torvalds has ever even= heard of it (and I suspect he would try to argue it isn't a problem at all= , given his tendency to not think clearly about systems scale issues, so wh= at's caused Linux to even bother is the fringes in OpenWRT land and mesh ne= tworking land, plus Jim Gettys).=0A =0AAnyway, FreeBSD and FreeRTOS and a f= ew other very strong but small communities have solutions that are far bett= er for their actual needs than the behemoth mess that Linux has become. And= for those communities, they work very well. They are disentangled from Gnu= , which is both a good and a bad thing depending on your perspective.=0A = =0AI just spent 9 months trying to get a very tiny fix to the Linux kernel = into the mainline kernel. I actually gave up, because it seemed utterly poi= ntless, even though it was clearly a design error that I was fixing, and I = was trying to meet all the constraints on patches. No one was fighting me, = no one said it was wrong. I found the problem in a personal research projec= t where it was a blocking bug, so I had to maintain it as an add-on private= patch (and I still do) that I needed to verify every release of the Linux = kernel. Why is this? Well, it shows how Linux excludes ideas by the very bu= reaucracy of its management structure. (and I'd suggest that the mess that = "init" has turned into in the OS, which the kernel actually requires in ord= er to be useful, called "systemd", is an example of how not to modularize a= portable OS kernel).=0A =0ASo FreeBSD, compared to Linux, in some ways, is= far more pleasant to deal with. The community doesn't have rude and cluele= ss and entitled members like Torvalds and Alan Cox have been. It isn't bein= g driven by a consortium of F100 companies in a near-cartel.=0A =0ASo there= are pluses and minuses. I suspect this is why many, many Linux developers = actually use macOS as their personal computer for development. A paradox, g= iven that macOS is completely proprietary.=0A =0A =0A =0AOn Sunday, March 2= 8, 2021 11:56am, "Dave Taht" said:=0A=0A=0A=0A> I am = sad about the state of freebsd today, and of companies=0A> contracting outs= ide the authors of the code to get crappy things=0A> committed without revi= ew and testing.=0A> =0A> https://lwn.net/Articles/850757/=0A> =0A> (long ra= nt of mine in the comments).=0A> =0A> My hat is off to jason for sinking a = frantic week into vastly=0A> improving that wireguard implementation, and I= hope he and his team=0A> gets caught up on sleep now.=0A> =0A> --=0A> "For= a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public=0A> rela= tions, for Mother Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman=0A> =0A> dave@= taht.net CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel: 1-831-435-0729=0A> ______= _________________________________________=0A> Cerowrt-devel mailing list=0A= > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net=0A> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/lis= tinfo/cerowrt-devel=0A> ------=_20210329162811000000_40463 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dave -

=0A

 

=0A

I've spent a fair amount of = time orbiting the FreeBSD community over the past few years. It's not as sa= d as you might think.

=0A

However, the networking po= rtion of FreeBSD community is quite differently organized than it is in Lin= ux.

=0A

 

=0A

What tends= to shape Linux and FreeBSD, etc. are the money sources that flow into the = communities. Of course Linux is quite independently wealthy now. The senior= executives of the Linux Foundation are paid nearly a million dollars a yea= r, each.  Which just indicates that major corporations are seriously i= nterested in controlling the evolution of Linux (not the Gnu part, the part= that has Linus Torvalds at its center).

=0A

 <= /p>=0A

FreeBSD, in contrast, is a loose alliance of wha= t you might call "embedded hardware vendors" like NetApp as an example. The= y value an open, portable, efficient operating environment, but not for ser= vers, laptops or smartphones.

=0A

 

=0A

They overlap at the intersection of network routing and sto= rage platforms, where Linux doesn't seem to fit well, except in the case of= "home routers".

=0A

 

=0A

At least that's my view. The major controllers of architectural elements= are not terribly interested in FreeBSD's positive qualities. FreeBSD is no= t very visible at Intel and ARM at all, interms of their product planning. = IBM has no "Power" FreeBSD.

=0A

 

=0A

Take for example, bufferbloat as an issue that routing and sw= itching hardware ought to address. This is a serious weakness in the FreeBS= D community (where it should matter!) There's not been much demand by the m= ajor corporate spenders on FreeBSD in fixing bufferbloat. But then again, t= here's not been much visibility regarding bufferbloat in the IETF, either. = I'm not sure Torvalds has ever even heard of it (and I suspect he would try= to argue it isn't a problem at all, given his tendency to not think clearl= y about systems scale issues, so what's caused Linux to even bother is the = fringes in OpenWRT land and mesh networking land, plus Jim Gettys).

=0A<= p style=3D"margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size: 10pt; overflow= -wrap: break-word;"> 

=0A

Anyway, FreeBSD and F= reeRTOS and a few other very strong but small communities have solutions th= at are far better for their actual needs than the behemoth mess that Linux = has become. And for those communities, they work very well. They are disent= angled from Gnu, which is both a good and a bad thing depending on your per= spective.

=0A

 

=0A

I ju= st spent 9 months trying to get a very tiny fix to the Linux kernel into th= e mainline kernel. I actually gave up, because it seemed utterly pointless,= even though it was clearly a design error that I was fixing, and I was try= ing to meet all the constraints on patches. No one was fighting me, no one = said it was wrong. I found the problem in a personal research project where= it was a blocking bug, so I had to maintain it as an add-on private patch = (and I still do) that I needed to verify every release of the Linux kernel.= Why is this? Well, it shows how Linux excludes ideas by the very bureaucra= cy of its management structure. (and I'd suggest that the mess that "init" = has turned into in the OS, which the kernel actually requires in order to b= e useful, called "systemd", is an example of how not to modularize a portab= le OS kernel).

=0A

 

=0A

So FreeBSD, compared to Linux, in some ways, is far more pleasant to deal = with. The community doesn't have rude and clueless and entitled members lik= e Torvalds and Alan Cox have been. It isn't being driven by a consortium of= F100 companies in a near-cartel.

=0A

 

=0A<= p style=3D"margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size: 10pt; overflow= -wrap: break-word;">So there are pluses and minuses. I suspect this is why = many, many Linux developers actually use macOS as their personal computer f= or development. A paradox, given that macOS is completely proprietary.

= =0A

 

=0A

 

=0A

 

=0A

On Sunday, March 28, 202= 1 11:56am, "Dave Taht" <dave.taht@gmail.com> said:

=0A=
=0A

> I am sad abou= t the state of freebsd today, and of companies
> contracting outsid= e the authors of the code to get crappy things
> committed without = review and testing.
>
> https://lwn.net/Articles/850757/>
> (long rant of mine in the comments).
>
&g= t; My hat is off to jason for sinking a frantic week into vastly
> = improving that wireguard implementation, and I hope he and his team
&g= t; gets caught up on sleep now.
>
> --
> "For a su= ccessful technology, reality must take precedence over public
> rel= ations, for Mother Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman
> > dave@taht.net <Dave T=C3=A4ht> CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel: 1-831-= 435-0729
> _______________________________________________
>= ; Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net<= br />> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
> =0A

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