From: "David P. Reed" <dpreed@deepplum.com>
To: "Livingood, Jason" <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com>
Cc: "Luca Muscariello" <muscariello@ieee.org>,
"Cake List" <cake@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
"Make-Wifi-fast" <make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
"Leonard Kleinrock" <lk@cs.ucla.edu>,
"Bob McMahon" <bob.mcmahon@broadcom.com>,
"starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
"codel@lists.bufferbloat.net" <codel@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
"cerowrt-devel" <cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
"bloat" <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
"Ben Greear" <greearb@candelatech.com>
Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] Little's Law mea culpa, but not invalidating my main point
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 13:40:30 -0400 (EDT) [thread overview]
Message-ID: <1626111630.69692379@apps.rackspace.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <EF8D7620-438A-4F65-94D9-B35FDB76FBBD@cable.comcast.com>
On Monday, July 12, 2021 9:46am, "Livingood, Jason" <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> said:
> I think latency/delay is becoming seen to be as important certainly, if not a more direct proxy for end user QoE. This is all still evolving and I have to say is a super interesting & fun thing to work on. :-)
If I could manage to sell one idea to the management hierarchy of communications industry CEOs (operators, vendors, ...) it is this one:
"It's the end-to-end latency, stupid!"
And I mean, by end-to-end, latency to complete a task at a relevant layer of abstraction.
At the link level, it's packet send to packet receive completion.
But at the transport level including retransmission buffers, it's datagram (or message) origination until the acknowledgement arrives for that message being delivered after whatever number of retransmissions, freeing the retransmission buffer.
At the WWW level, it's mouse click to display update corresponding to completion of the request.
What should be noted is that lower level latencies don't directly predict the magnitude of higher-level latencies. But longer lower level latencies almost always amplfify higher level latencies. Often non-linearly.
Throughput is very, very weakly related to these latencies, in contrast.
The amplification process has to do with the presence of queueing. Queueing is ALWAYS bad for latency, and throughput only helps if it is in exactly the right place (the so-called input queue of the bottleneck process, which is often a link, but not always).
Can we get that slogan into Harvard Business Review? Can we get it taught in Managerial Accounting at HBS? (which does address logistics/supply chain queueing).
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-07-12 17:40 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 108+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-07-01 0:12 [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug 2: Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board Dave Taht
2021-07-02 1:16 ` David P. Reed
2021-07-02 4:04 ` [Make-wifi-fast] " Bob McMahon
2021-07-02 16:11 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] " Dick Roy
2021-07-02 17:07 ` [Cerowrt-devel] " Dave Taht
2021-07-02 23:28 ` [Make-wifi-fast] " Bob McMahon
2021-07-06 13:46 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] " Ben Greear
2021-07-06 20:43 ` [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-07-06 21:24 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] " Ben Greear
2021-07-06 22:05 ` [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-07-07 13:34 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] " Ben Greear
2021-07-07 19:19 ` [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-07-08 19:38 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] " David P. Reed
2021-07-08 22:51 ` [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-07-09 3:08 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] " Leonard Kleinrock
2021-07-09 10:05 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] " Luca Muscariello
2021-07-09 19:31 ` [Cerowrt-devel] Little's Law mea culpa, but not invalidating my main point David P. Reed
2021-07-09 20:24 ` Bob McMahon
2021-07-09 22:57 ` [Bloat] " Holland, Jake
2021-07-09 23:37 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2021-07-09 23:01 ` [Cerowrt-devel] " Leonard Kleinrock
2021-07-09 23:56 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] " Jonathan Morton
2021-07-17 23:56 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Make-wifi-fast] " Aaron Wood
2021-07-10 19:51 ` Bob McMahon
2021-07-10 23:24 ` Bob McMahon
2021-07-12 13:46 ` [Bloat] " Livingood, Jason
2021-07-12 17:40 ` David P. Reed [this message]
2021-07-12 18:21 ` Bob McMahon
2021-07-12 18:38 ` Bob McMahon
2021-07-12 19:07 ` [Cerowrt-devel] " Ben Greear
2021-07-12 20:04 ` Bob McMahon
2021-07-12 20:32 ` [Cerowrt-devel] " Ben Greear
2021-07-12 20:36 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Cake] " David Lang
2021-07-12 20:50 ` Bob McMahon
2021-07-12 20:42 ` Bob McMahon
2021-07-13 7:14 ` [Cerowrt-devel] " Amr Rizk
2021-07-13 17:07 ` Bob McMahon
2021-07-13 17:49 ` [Cerowrt-devel] " David P. Reed
2021-07-14 18:37 ` Bob McMahon
2021-07-15 1:27 ` Holland, Jake
2021-07-16 0:34 ` Bob McMahon
[not found] ` <A5E35F34-A4D5-45B1-8E2D-E2F6DE988A1E@cs.ucla.edu>
2021-07-22 16:30 ` Bob McMahon
2021-07-13 17:22 ` Bob McMahon
2021-07-17 23:29 ` [Cerowrt-devel] " Aaron Wood
2021-07-18 19:06 ` Bob McMahon
2021-07-12 21:54 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Make-wifi-fast] " Jonathan Morton
2021-09-20 1:21 ` [Cerowrt-devel] " Dave Taht
2021-09-20 4:00 ` Valdis Klētnieks
2021-09-20 4:09 ` David Lang
2021-09-20 21:30 ` David P. Reed
2021-09-20 21:44 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Cake] " David P. Reed
2021-09-20 12:57 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] " Steve Crocker
2021-09-20 16:36 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Cake] " John Sager
2021-09-21 2:40 ` [Starlink] [Cerowrt-devel] " Vint Cerf
2021-09-23 17:46 ` Bob McMahon
2021-09-26 18:24 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] " David P. Reed
2021-10-22 0:51 ` TCP_NOTSENT_LOWAT applied to e2e TCP msg latency Bob McMahon
2021-10-26 3:11 ` [Make-wifi-fast] " Stuart Cheshire
2021-10-26 4:24 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] " Eric Dumazet
2021-10-26 18:45 ` Christoph Paasch
2021-10-26 23:23 ` Bob McMahon
2021-10-26 23:38 ` Christoph Paasch
2021-10-27 1:12 ` [Cerowrt-devel] " Eric Dumazet
2021-10-27 3:45 ` Bob McMahon
2021-10-27 5:40 ` [Cerowrt-devel] " Eric Dumazet
2021-10-28 16:04 ` Christoph Paasch
2021-10-29 21:16 ` Bob McMahon
2021-10-26 5:32 ` Bob McMahon
2021-10-26 10:04 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] " Bjørn Ivar Teigen
2021-10-26 17:23 ` Bob McMahon
2021-10-27 14:29 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] " Sebastian Moeller
2021-08-02 22:59 ` [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug 2: Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board Bob McMahon
2021-08-02 23:16 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] " David Lang
2021-08-02 23:50 ` [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-08-03 3:06 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] " David Lang
2021-08-02 23:55 ` Ben Greear
2021-08-03 0:01 ` [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-08-03 3:12 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] " David Lang
2021-08-03 3:23 ` [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-08-03 4:30 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] " David Lang
2021-08-03 4:38 ` [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-08-03 4:44 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] " David Lang
2021-08-03 16:01 ` [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-08-08 4:35 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] " Dick Roy
2021-08-08 5:04 ` [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-08-08 5:04 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] " Dick Roy
2021-08-08 5:07 ` [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-08-10 14:10 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] " Rodney W. Grimes
2021-08-10 16:13 ` Dick Roy
2021-08-10 17:06 ` [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-08-10 17:56 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] " Dick Roy
2021-08-10 18:11 ` Dick Roy
2021-08-10 19:21 ` [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-08-10 20:16 ` [Cerowrt-devel] Anhyone have a spare couple a hundred million ... Elon may need to start a go-fund-me page! Dick Roy
2021-08-10 20:33 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] " Jeremy Austin
2021-08-10 20:44 ` David Lang
2021-08-10 22:54 ` Bob McMahon
2021-09-02 17:36 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Cake] [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] Due Aug 2: Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board David P. Reed
2021-09-03 14:35 ` [Bloat] [Cake] [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] " Matt Mathis
2021-09-03 18:33 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] [Cake] [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] " David P. Reed
2021-08-03 0:37 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] " Leonard Kleinrock
2021-08-03 1:24 ` [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-08-08 5:07 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] " Dick Roy
2021-08-08 5:15 ` [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-08-08 18:36 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] [Cake] " Aaron Wood
2021-08-08 18:48 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] " Jonathan Morton
2021-08-08 19:58 ` [Bloat] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] [Cake] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-08-08 4:20 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] " Dick Roy
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