From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp102.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp102.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CB6153B29D for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 13:07:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from app67.wa-webapps.iad3a (relay-webapps.rsapps.net [172.27.255.140]) by smtp13.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 583DE1929; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 13:07:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from deepplum.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by app67.wa-webapps.iad3a (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41CDE600DD; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 13:07:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by apps.rackspace.com (Authenticated sender: dpreed@deepplum.com, from: dpreed@deepplum.com) with HTTP; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 13:07:40 -0500 (EST) X-Auth-ID: dpreed@deepplum.com Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 13:07:40 -0500 (EST) From: "David P. Reed" To: "Sebastian Moeller" Cc: "=?utf-8?Q?Joel_Wir=C4=81mu_Pauling?=" , "cerowrt-devel" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_20211219130740000000_80681" Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Type: html In-Reply-To: <7F1B6B98-2DE2-41A3-B47F-30B46E2736FB@gmx.de> References: <1639678615.275317887@apps.rackspace.com> <1639690165.936410589@apps.rackspace.com> <4927o62q-qq3-p947-qopq-89rppp637497@ynat.uz> <7F1B6B98-2DE2-41A3-B47F-30B46E2736FB@gmx.de> X-Client-IP: 209.6.168.128 Message-ID: <1639937260.265826851@apps.rackspace.com> X-Mailer: webmail/19.0.13-RC X-Classification-ID: 2b5ccfd6-2f42-465a-8ddd-7705b7e154d8-1-1 Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] 10gige and 2.5gige X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 18:07:40 -0000 ------=_20211219130740000000_80681 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0ALeviton has wallplates for fiber, and the tools for fiber are cheaper th= an the tools for CAT6.=0APulling fiber through walls hasn't been a problem = for me. No more than pulling CAT6.=0A =0AI know I shouldn't kink or pull fi= ber hard. In the worst case, I pull light flexible conduit through walls wi= th pull strings so I can add arbitrary numbers of fibers. This is good prac= tice, anyway (for wires or fibers).=0A =0A =0AOn Friday, December 17, 2021 = 3:18am, "Sebastian Moeller" said:=0A=0A=0A=0A> To add to = Joel's point,=0A> =0A> I can do my own catX cable runs and connect sockets/= plugs to the cables, but I=0A> lack the tools for fiber-splicing... as cool= as that would be it is going to be=0A> hard to justify multi-100s EUR for = a splicer.. That still leaves short distance in=0A> the main computing area= of an appartment/house, but I doubt that many consumers=0A> have a concent= ration high enough to justify the costs even there.=0A> =0A> What I do see = over here in Europe, with FTTH-roll out speeding up, is CPE that=0A> offer = SFP/SFP+ cages for the WAN side though, SFP+ becoming more common since ISP= s=0A> started to deploy XGS-PON (gross 10Gpbs bidirectionally, after FEC ~8= .5 Gbps).=0A> =0A> =0A> Regards=0A> Sebastian=0A> =0A> P.S.: I have not sta= rted jumping on the 2.5 Gbps or higher train just yet, none of=0A> my devic= es seems massively underserved with just 1Gbps yet (with the potential=0A> = exception of a single link where >=3D 2Gbps would be nice since I am one ca= be=0A> short and >2Gbps would allow to multiplex two 1Gbps connections over= that=0A> cable).=0A> =0A> =0A> > On Dec 16, 2021, at 22:57, Joel Wir=C4=81= mu Pauling =0A> wrote:=0A> >=0A> > Yes but as much as I = like fibre; it's too fragile for the average household=0A> structured cabli= ng real world use case. Not to mention nothing consumwe comes with=0A> SFP+= in the home space.=0A> >=0A> > On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, 10:43 am David Lang, <= david@lang.hm> wrote:=0A> > another valuable featur of fiber for home use i= s that fiber can't contribute=0A> to=0A> > ground loops the way that copper= cables can.=0A> >=0A> > and for the paranoid (like me :-) ) fiber also mea= ns that any electrical=0A> > disaster that happens to one end won't propgat= e through and fry other=0A> equipment=0A> >=0A> > David Lang=0A> >=0A> > On= Thu, 16 Dec 2021, David P. Reed wrote:=0A> >=0A> > > Thanks, That's good t= o know...The whole SFP+ adapter concept has seemed=0A> to me to be a "tween= er" in hardware design space. Too many failure points. That=0A> said, I lik= e fiber's properties as a medium for distances.=0A> > >=0A> > >=0A> > > On = Thursday, December 16, 2021 2:31pm, "Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling"=0A> said:=0A> > >=0A> > >=0A> > >=0A> > >=0A> > > Heat issues you m= ention with UTP are gone; with the [ 803.bz ](=0A> http://803.bz ) stuff (i= .e Base-N).=0A> > > It was mostly due to the 10G-Base-T spec being old and = out of line with=0A> the SFP+ spec ; which led to higher power consumption = than SFP+ cages were rated=0A> to draw and aforementioned heat problems; th= is is not a problem with newer kit.=0A> > > It went away with the move to s= maller silicon processes and now UTP=0A> based 10G in the home devices are = more common and don't suffer from the fragility=0A> issues of the earlier c= opper based 10G spec. The AQC chipsets were the first to=0A> introduce it b= ut most other vendors have finally picked it up after 5 years or=0A> feet d= ragging.=0A> > >=0A> > >=0A> > > On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 7:16 AM David P. R= eed <[ dpreed@deepplum.com=0A> ]( mailto:dpreed@deepplum.com )> wrote:=0A> = > > Yes, it's very cheap and getting cheaper.=0A> > >=0A> > > Since its pri= ce fell to the point I thought was cheap, my home has a 10=0A> GigE fiber b= ackbone, 2 switches in my main centers of computers, lots of 10 GigE=0A> NI= Cs in servers, and even dual 10 GigE adapters in a Thunderbolt 3 external= =0A> adapter for my primary desktop, which is a Skull Canyon NUC.=0A> > >= =0A> > > I strongly recommend people use fiber and sfp+ DAC cabling because= =0A> twisted pair, while cheaper, actually is problematic at speeds above 1= Gig -=0A> mostly due to power and heat.=0A> > >=0A> > > BTW, it's worth po= inting out that USB 3.1 can handle 10 Gb/sec, too, and=0A> USB-C connectors= and cables can carry Thunderbolt at higher rates. Those adapters=0A> are R= EALLY CHEAP. There's nothing inherently different about the electronics, if= =0A> anything, USB 3.1 is more complicate logic than the ethernet MAC.=0A> = > >=0A> > > So the reason 10 GigE is still far more expensive than USB 3.1 = is mainly=0A> market volume - if 10 GigE were a consumer product, not a dat= acenter product,=0A> you'd think it would already be as cheap as USB 3.1 in= computers and switches.=0A> > >=0A> > > Since DOCSIS can support up to 5 G= b/s, I think, when will Internet=0A> Access Providers start offering "Cable= Modems" that support customers who want=0A> more than "a full Gig"? Given = all the current DOCSIS 3 CMTS's etc. out there, it's=0A> just a configurati= on change.=0A> > >=0A> > > So when will consumer "routers" support 5 Gig, 1= 0 Gig?=0A> > >=0A> > > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 11:20am, "Dave Taht" = <[=0A> dave.taht@gmail.com ]( mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com )> said:=0A> > >= =0A> > >=0A> > >=0A> > >> has really got cheap.=0A> > >>=0A> > >> [ https:/= /www.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter=0A> ]( https://ww= w.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter )=0A> > >>=0A> > >> = On the other hand users are reporting issues with actually using=0A> > >> 2= .5ghz cable with this router in particular, halving the achieved=0A> rate= =0A> > >> by negotiating 2.5gbit vs negotiating 1gbit.=0A> > >>=0A> > >> [ = https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D179145#p897836 ](=0A> https://= forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D179145#p897836 )=0A> > >>=0A> > >>=0A>= > >> --=0A> > >> I tried to build a better future, a few times:=0A> > >> [= https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org ](=0A> h= ttps://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org )=0A> > >>= =0A> > >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC=0A> > >> ______________________= _________________________=0A> > >> Cerowrt-devel mailing list=0A> > >> [ Ce= rowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ](=0A> mailto:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferb= loat.net )=0A> > >> [ https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel = ](=0A> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel )=0A> > >> ____= ___________________________________________=0A> > > Cerowrt-devel mailing l= ist=0A> > > [ Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ](=0A> mailto:Cerowrt-dev= el@lists.bufferbloat.net )=0A> > > [ https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo= /cerowrt-devel ](=0A> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel= =0A> )_______________________________________________=0A> > Cerowrt-devel m= ailing list=0A> > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net=0A> > https://lists.b= ufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel=0A> > _______________________________= ________________=0A> > Cerowrt-devel mailing list=0A> > Cerowrt-devel@lists= .bufferbloat.net=0A> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel= =0A> =0A> _______________________________________________=0A> Cerowrt-devel= mailing list=0A> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net=0A> https://lists.buf= ferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel=0A> ------=_20211219130740000000_80681 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Leviton has wallplates= for fiber, and the tools for fiber are cheaper than the tools for CAT6.=0A

Pulling fiber through walls hasn't been a problem = for me. No more than pulling CAT6.

=0A

 

=0A=

I know I shouldn't kink or pull fiber hard. In the wor= st case, I pull light flexible conduit through walls with pull strings so I= can add arbitrary numbers of fibers. This is good practice, anyway (for wi= res or fibers).

=0A

 

=0A

On Friday, December 17, 2021 3:18am, "S= ebastian Moeller" <moeller0@gmx.de> said:

=0A
=0A

> To add to Joel's poi= nt,
>
> I can do my own catX cable runs and connect socket= s/plugs to the cables, but I
> lack the tools for fiber-splicing...= as cool as that would be it is going to be
> hard to justify multi= -100s EUR for a splicer.. That still leaves short distance in
> the= main computing area of an appartment/house, but I doubt that many consumer= s
> have a concentration high enough to justify the costs even ther= e.
>
> What I do see over here in Europe, with FTTH-roll o= ut speeding up, is CPE that
> offer SFP/SFP+ cages for the WAN side= though, SFP+ becoming more common since ISPs
> started to deploy X= GS-PON (gross 10Gpbs bidirectionally, after FEC ~8.5 Gbps).
>
>
> Regards
> Sebastian
>
> P.S.: I h= ave not started jumping on the 2.5 Gbps or higher train just yet, none of> my devices seems massively underserved with just 1Gbps yet (with t= he potential
> exception of a single link where >=3D 2Gbps would= be nice since I am one cabe
> short and >2Gbps would allow to m= ultiplex two 1Gbps connections over that
> cable).
>
= >
> > On Dec 16, 2021, at 22:57, Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling &l= t;joel@aenertia.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > Yes = but as much as I like fibre; it's too fragile for the average household
> structured cabling real world use case. Not to mention nothing consu= mwe comes with
> SFP+ in the home space.
> >
> &= gt; On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, 10:43 am David Lang, <david@lang.hm> wrote:<= br />> > another valuable featur of fiber for home use is that fiber = can't contribute
> to
> > ground loops the way that copp= er cables can.
> >
> > and for the paranoid (like me = :-) ) fiber also means that any electrical
> > disaster that hap= pens to one end won't propgate through and fry other
> equipment> >
> > David Lang
> >
> > On Thu= , 16 Dec 2021, David P. Reed wrote:
> >
> > > Than= ks, That's good to know...The whole SFP+ adapter concept has seemed
&g= t; to me to be a "tweener" in hardware design space. Too many failure point= s. That
> said, I like fiber's properties as a medium for distances= .
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thursday, = December 16, 2021 2:31pm, "Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling"
> <joel@aen= ertia.net> said:
> > >
> > >
> > = >
> > >
> > > Heat issues you mention with U= TP are gone; with the [ 803.bz ](
> http://803.bz ) stuff (i.e Base= -N).
> > > It was mostly due to the 10G-Base-T spec being old= and out of line with
> the SFP+ spec ; which led to higher power c= onsumption than SFP+ cages were rated
> to draw and aforementioned = heat problems; this is not a problem with newer kit.
> > > It= went away with the move to smaller silicon processes and now UTP
>= based 10G in the home devices are more common and don't suffer from the fr= agility
> issues of the earlier copper based 10G spec. The AQC chip= sets were the first to
> introduce it but most other vendors have f= inally picked it up after 5 years or
> feet dragging.
> >= ; >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 7:16= AM David P. Reed <dpreed@deepplu= m.com
>> wrote:
> > > Yes, it's very cheap and= getting cheaper.
> > >
> > > Since its price f= ell to the point I thought was cheap, my home has a 10
> GigE fiber= backbone, 2 switches in my main centers of computers, lots of 10 GigE
> NICs in servers, and even dual 10 GigE adapters in a Thunderbolt 3 ex= ternal
> adapter for my primary desktop, which is a Skull Canyon NU= C.
> > >
> > > I strongly recommend people use = fiber and sfp+ DAC cabling because
> twisted pair, while cheaper, a= ctually is problematic at speeds above 1 Gig -
> mostly due to powe= r and heat.
> > >
> > > BTW, it's worth pointin= g out that USB 3.1 can handle 10 Gb/sec, too, and
> USB-C connector= s and cables can carry Thunderbolt at higher rates. Those adapters
>= ; are REALLY CHEAP. There's nothing inherently different about the electron= ics, if
> anything, USB 3.1 is more complicate logic than the ether= net MAC.
> > >
> > > So the reason 10 GigE is s= till far more expensive than USB 3.1 is mainly
> market volume - if= 10 GigE were a consumer product, not a datacenter product,
> you'd= think it would already be as cheap as USB 3.1 in computers and switches.> > >
> > > Since DOCSIS can support up to 5 Gb/= s, I think, when will Internet
> Access Providers start offering "C= able Modems" that support customers who want
> more than "a full Gi= g"? Given all the current DOCSIS 3 CMTS's etc. out there, it's
> ju= st a configuration change.
> > >
> > > So when = will consumer "routers" support 5 Gig, 10 Gig?
> > >
>= ; > > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 11:20am, "Dave Taht" <[
= > dave.taht@gmail.com ]( mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com )> said:
>= ; > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>= has really got cheap.
> > >>
> > >> ht= tps://www.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter
>
> > >>
> > >> On the other hand users a= re reporting issues with actually using
> > >> 2.5ghz cabl= e with this router in particular, halving the achieved
> rate
= > > >> by negotiating 2.5gbit vs negotiating 1gbit.
> &= gt; >>
> > >> [ https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic= .php?t=3D179145#p897836 ](
> https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.p= hp?t=3D179145#p897836 )
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> I tried to build a better f= uture, a few times:
> > >> [ https://wayforward.archive.or= g/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org ](
> https://wayforward.archiv= e.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org )
> > >>
>= ; > >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
> > >> _= ______________________________________________
> > >> Cero= wrt-devel mailing list
> > >> [ Cerowrt-devel@lists.buffer= bloat.net ](
> mailto:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net )
&g= t; > >> [ https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ](<= br />> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel )
> = > >> _______________________________________________
> >= ; > Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> > > [ Cerowrt-devel@lists= .bufferbloat.net ](
> mailto:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net )<= br />> > > [ https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel = ](
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
>= )_______________________________________________
> > Cerowrt-de= vel mailing list
> > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
&g= t; > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
> >= _______________________________________________
> > Cerowrt-dev= el mailing list
> > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
>= ; > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cerowrt-dev= el mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
> htt= ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
>

=0A
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