From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E85D521F1C0 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 03:47:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.45]) by gateway1.nyi.mail.srv.osa (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE70B20485; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 06:47:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend1 ([10.202.2.160]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 05 Aug 2013 06:47:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=imap.cc; h=from :content-type:subject:date:references:to:message-id :mime-version; s=mesmtp; bh=SBpGYftqvzZ1eZ4MdzwA/9FKbN0=; b=gYh9 XlUS4pmicBU5HT5eFozQjiy14E/clkpPEc61NwJC31PlAL2nVkgUF+GHJXj45jWU zB4XkbJAaCpPQBjk7rOPr9F8N+Ev9nJcn7Q3Tzqc41wW70/Sy/Gsz08g85V+HlUR yhDqPLXzIQ2M+FRNyvdqBx8/6pBSwz2eUTOi2t0= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=from:content-type:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version; s=smtpout; bh=SBpGYftqvzZ1eZ4MdzwA/ 9FKbN0=; b=MnbKgcy4xS6quZwEIQU0PsQCWlKv4ImdsJfWyUQWG7xWLmCh3GeLs aUG0sfyTnLU6LhHjEzULbSNCXMIg1ei0bOPoDsTtcEIZKfw2rBmymhiyN0+KLolC zJrjeYCOfULcLhOqtoYXzcOdHmochON885YrPRj+SGCkjhvBc59aqw= X-Sasl-enc: UmXPpKLo6KK4rKBPnnPseNR33BWcuZ5TJwOL4HM28eKG 1375699649 Received: from [172.30.42.15] (unknown [188.221.232.223]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 8B681C00E82 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 06:47:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Fred Stratton Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_245E04F7-9B37-47EF-8603-57AA6C14EE07" Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2013 11:47:25 +0100 References: <46820144-E1DD-4858-A2B6-38F95D2894DB@imap.cc> To: "cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" Message-Id: <1AEAC257-ACFB-463E-B5CF-C7D086EE5B03@imap.cc> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.5 \(1508\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1508) Subject: [Cerowrt-devel] cerowrt-3.10.2-1 dev release + owamp X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2013 10:47:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_245E04F7-9B37-47EF-8603-57AA6C14EE07 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 (sent initially to incorrect address) Begin forwarded message: > From: Fred Stratton > Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] cerowrt-3.10.2-1 dev release + owamp > Date: 5 August 2013 11:45:33 BST > To: Sebastian Moeller >=20 >=20 > On 5 Aug 2013, at 10:44, Sebastian Moeller wrote: >=20 >> Hi Fred, >>=20 >>=20 >> On Aug 4, 2013, at 15:03 , Fred Stratton = wrote: >>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 3 Aug 2013, at 21:53, Sebastian Moeller wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Hi Fread, >>=20 >> Sorry for the typo... >>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On Aug 3, 2013, at 12:36 , Fred Stratton = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> I cannot currently access the gateway device.=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> AFAIK, Cerowrt does not allow setting up a masquerade, and it is = physically difficult to access. I wish I could have a masquerade. The = device has a fixed IP address of 192.168.1.254. >>>>=20 >>>> Interestingly, I can access my DSL-router on https://192.168.2.1 = through cerowrt without any required configuration or firewall changes = (and that also worked with 102.168.100.1 to the cable modem I used = before). Have you recently tried this again? I do not run the required = PPPOE client on cerowrt, but on the DSL-router. >>>=20 >>> You are using 2 routers in series. I have disabled all routing = functions on the 2wire. It is transparent to the network. >>=20 >> Which is exactly the situation I faced with the cable modem = before; my cerowrt-router was provisioned with an IP address through the = bridged cable-modem via DHCP, but I still could access the modem's = 192.168.100.1 with out any configuration required. I know there is some = openwork information = (http://wiki.openwrt.org/doc/howto/access.modem.through.nat) that makes = it look like one needs to do more involved fiddling with the firewall, = but that turned out not to be required with cerowrt. I do not know how = that works if one runs a pppoe client on cerowrt though and I left = cerowrt's ip address assignment in place. (My hunch is that since = cerowrt leaves the typical 192.168.N.N ranges alone the whole issue gets = reduced to a simple routing issue=85 and since Dave takes care that cero = works well as secondary (test) router in a typical home situation, I = guess routing 192.168.N.N is well with in cerowrt's scope) >> But, I guess you tried that already and it still does not work. = Would be interesting to learn why=85 >=20 > The difference is that you have the ISP gateway as a primary device = issuing a DHCP address to the cerowrt secondary router. The 2 devices = are then obviously on the same ipv4 subnet. >=20 > I use the 2700 transparently. DHCP is turned off. If I turn it on, I = have to use the device in DMZ mode with its firewall on, which I do not = want to do. >=20 > Initially, I used the 2700 with the tomatoUSB router attached to that, = and then a router running openWRT. This setup allowed access to the = 2700, through a masquerade in tomatoUSB.=20 >=20 > Although ipv6 addresses were propagated throughout the network by = Barrier Breaker, ipv6 did not work, probably because of the way radvd = works in tomato. >=20 > I have never used the cerowrt as a secondary device because of this. >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Openwrt has a masquerade function, which has been removed. There is = no doubt a good reason for this. >>=20 >> Have you tried to assign an alias to the WAN interface in the = same subnet as the modem's IP? Might do the trick=85 >>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> The target snr is set high, so the device does not retrain for = months, so the line speed remains constant. The ISP I use has been sold = by Telefonica to Sky, who use a fixed 7.5 target snr, so this stability = may go. I may change ISPs to overcome this. >>>>>=20 >>>>> The device is a bridged 2wire 2700, which provides a frequency = graph. This looked normal. >>>>>=20 >>>>> When I used a Broadcom based router, and TomatoUSB -shibby - I = could access the device and run RouterStats in a wine bottle. The = interference occurs at 0700 and 0200 every day. I have had the street = lights serviced. Chain saws are a problem. Aldi or Lidl sell cheap chain = saws which are not well suppressed electrically and cause random = interference. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I use a VDSL grade NTE >>>>=20 >>>> Ah, in Germany XDSL capable modems (i.e. VDSL and ADSL) have a = bad reputation for ADSL lines (think Jack of all trades, master of none) = no idea whether that is deserved though=85 >>>=20 >>> I am referring to the network termination wall plate, which contains = rf chokes which function like the coil craft device. >>=20 >> Well, so do DSL modems, but not all chokes are of equal quality=85= that said I am quite impressed that you have common mode chokes in the = termination equipment. In Germany all we get is a dumb frequency = splitter, and with all IP telephony roll-out not even that anymore :) >=20 > Te UK phone socket is mounted on a standard box that is used for = electrical sockets and switches in house walls. It has 2 halves - a = backplate, installed by the phone company and attached to the line, and = a front plate, which the end user can change. A number are available = containing different chokes. There is a phone socket - a UK phone = socket, bigger than RJ-11, and an RJ-45 socket for internet equipment. >>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> , with large line chokes, shielded cables. and ferrite rings on = the input phone line. >>>>=20 >>>> I guess this is for common mode rejection? When I had issues = with a borderline del link in the past the coil craft TRF-r11 = (http://www.coilcraft.com/pdf_viewer/showpdf.cfm?f=3Dpdf_store:modjack.pdf= ) worked well for me. Then again ideally one would include the common = mode chokes to all lines going into the modem (including ethernet and = power). >>>>=20 >>>>> All phones are DECT. >>>>>=20 >>>>> The problem with a liberal Telecoms market is that there is only = one Wholesale provider, OpenReach. They will not investigate anything = other than voice line faults. The phone lines and cabinets are over 60 = years old. >>>>=20 >>>> Well, sure but that is not going to change any time soon (as = much as I think everybody should be connected by optic fiber). = Admittedly I have soft spot in my heart for keeping infrastructure = operating well past beyond its prime :)=20 >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> I am sure the 2700 is part of the problem. However other choices, = like a Thomson TG585v7, are associated with similar uplink delays. >>>>=20 >>>> How do you measure the uplink delay? Oh I just remembered you = had issues with getting netsurf 2.6 to work on ubuntu 12.4? Because Toke = (https://github.com/tohojo/netperf-wrapper) has prepared nice packages = of netsur-wrapper for ubuntu that include netsurf, so maybe you could = try netsurf-wrapper to test your latencies. (One caveat, as Dave noticed = in ubuntu 12.4 the saved plots from netsurf-wrapper suffer from a = suboptimal python matplotlib) >>>>=20 >>>>> and does not hold the line as well. despite its Broadcom SoC - the = DSLAM is an Ericsson, which returns BRCM. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I mention all this on list not just to answer your question, but = to describe a fairly typical situation. The majority of users obtain = internet service over a land line., these days via ASDL2+. I have a = liberal telecoms market, can swap around the equipment II have attached = to a typical phone line perfectly legally to optimise the signal I = receive. Boxes like the 2wire and Thomson TG585v7 are what ISPs provide. = =20 >>>>> Cerowrt should at some point allow the ADSL user to surf the web = and download at the same time. =20 >>>>=20 >>>> I know that this is not going to help you, but my experience is = that once I hooked up my cerowrt (wndr3700) to one of the internal = ethernet ports of my ISP supplied (and remotely administered) = DSL-router-modem-combo and switched all my machines to connect to cero = networks, the internet got a whole lot more useable again immediately. = Streaming and downloading and browsing the web got possible again once = the ISP's router was relieved of being the bottleneck :) >>>=20 >>> I have, in effect, done this. >>=20 >> Ah, and that did not improve "interactivity"? That is a bit sad, = and I would like to help, but it seems I am at the end of my wits. >=20 > You have helped considerably, providing a data point of what does = work. >=20 > I may try different qdiscs with stab >=20 > I do not want to use cable, which is expensive. The DOCSIS box - a = custom Netgear device - has a poor reputation. >=20 > I do not want to use fibre, again, because when it comes here, it will = be supplied by BT/, and is traffic shaped and capped. The BT web site = has 35 pages of price increases for this year. >=20 > I will continue with ADSL2+ >>=20 >> Best >> Sebastian >>=20 >>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> best regards >>>> Sebastian >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> On 3 Aug 2013, at 10:38, Sebastian Moeller = wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>> Hi Fred, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Aug 1, 2013, at 00:35 , Fred Stratton = wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On 31 Jul 2013, at 23:14, Sebastian Moeller = wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Hi Fred, >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> thanks a lot. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> On Jul 31, 2013, at 23:37 , Fred Stratton = wrote: >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> tc -s -d class show dev ge00 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> class htb 1:10 parent 1:1 leaf 110: prio 0 quantum 1500 rate = 700000bit ceil 700000bit burst 1599b/1 mpu 0b overhead 0b cburst 1599b/1 = mpu 0b overhead 0b level 0=20 >>>>>>>>> Sent 15809014 bytes 115190 pkt (dropped 4733, overlimits 0 = requeues 0)=20 >>>>>>>>> rate 3616bit 3pps backlog 0b 0p requeues 0=20 >>>>>>>>> lended: 115190 borrowed: 0 giants: 0 >>>>>>>>> tokens: 263560 ctokens: 263560 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> class htb 1:1 root rate 700000bit ceil 700000bit burst 1599b/1 = mpu 0b overhead 0b cburst 1599b/1 mpu 0b overhead 0b level 7=20 >>>>>>>>> Sent 15809014 bytes 115190 pkt (dropped 0, overlimits 0 = requeues 0)=20 >>>>>>>>> rate 3616bit 3pps backlog 0b 0p requeues 0=20 >>>>>>>>> lended: 0 borrowed: 0 giants: 0 >>>>>>>>> tokens: 263560 ctokens: 263560 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> class fq_codel 110:1b8 parent 110:=20 >>>>>>>>> (dropped 0, overlimits 0 requeues 0)=20 >>>>>>>>> backlog 0b 0p requeues 0=20 >>>>>>>>> deficit 84 count 0 lastcount 0 delay 10us >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> tc -s -d class show dev ifb0 >>>>>>>>> class htb 1:10 parent 1:1 leaf 110: prio 0 quantum 1500 rate = 7000Kbit ceil 7000Kbit burst 1598b/1 mpu 0b overhead 0b cburst 1598b/1 = mpu 0b overhead 0b level 0=20 >>>>>>>>> Sent 192992612 bytes 168503 pkt (dropped 0, overlimits 0 = requeues 0)=20 >>>>>>>>> rate 17096bit 4pps backlog 0b 0p requeues 0=20 >>>>>>>>> lended: 168503 borrowed: 0 giants: 0 >>>>>>>>> tokens: 27454 ctokens: 27454 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> class htb 1:1 root rate 7000Kbit ceil 7000Kbit burst 1598b/1 = mpu 0b overhead 0b cburst 1598b/1 mpu 0b overhead 0b level 7=20 >>>>>>>>> Sent 192992612 bytes 168503 pkt (dropped 0, overlimits 0 = requeues 0)=20 >>>>>>>>> rate 17096bit 4pps backlog 0b 0p requeues 0=20 >>>>>>>>> lended: 0 borrowed: 0 giants: 0 >>>>>>>>> tokens: 27454 ctokens: 27454 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> class fq_codel 110:cc parent 110:=20 >>>>>>>>> (dropped 10, overlimits 0 requeues 0)=20 >>>>>>>>> backlog 0b 0p requeues 0=20 >>>>>>>>> deficit -198 count 1 lastcount 1 ldelay 2.3ms >>>>>>>>> class fq_codel 110:1d9 parent 110:=20 >>>>>>>>> (dropped 0, overlimits 0 requeues 0)=20 >>>>>>>>> backlog 0b 0p requeues 0=20 >>>>>>>>> deficit 226 count 0 lastcount 0 ldelay 2us >>>>>>>>> class fq_codel 110:1de parent 110:=20 >>>>>>>>> (dropped 0, overlimits 0 requeues 0)=20 >>>>>>>>> backlog 0b 0p requeues 0=20 >>>>>>>>> deficit 238 count 0 lastcount 0 ldelay 10us >>>>>>>>> class fq_codel 110:345 parent 110:=20 >>>>>>>>> (dropped 0, overlimits 0 requeues 0)=20 >>>>>>>>> backlog 0b 0p requeues 0=20 >>>>>>>>> deficit 226 count 0 lastcount 0 delay 9us >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> I changed the hard coded values in /usr/lib/aqm/functions.sh = to arbitrary values, rebooted and obtained the same results. Both = reflect the 7000kbit/s down and 700kbit/s up I entered in the window. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> What is the line rate as read out from the del modem or = specified in your contract? >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Speedtest.net shows the rate as circa 8.7 megabits/s down, 1 = megabit/s up. Line has radio frequency interference from unidentified = sources.. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> So it looks like specify a generous reserve for the shaper. Can = you log into your modem and get the current line rates? The rf = interference, is it constant (if you can get nice SNR per sub carrier or = even ust bit loading per frequency plots) that is does it only affect = the same frequencies or does it change? (I ask, because temporary = interference might reduce the effective line rate, potentially moving = the buffer back into the del modem) >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Target snr upped to 12 deciBel. Line can sustain 10 megabits/s = with repeated loss of sync.at lower snr. Contract is for 'up to = 20megabits/s'. =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> So ADSL2+ as you even mentioned it before. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 850 metres from exchange. Line length circa 1.2km. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> I ticked the adsl box. Altering the value in functions.sh and = unticking the box, with reboot, produced the same outcome. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> This nicely shows I screwed up my testing (and or forgot = to reboot between changes). Or I did try too high a data rate (initially = 97% of the raw link rate) >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> traceroute google.com >>>>>>>>> traceroute: Warning: google.com has multiple addresses; using = 173.194.41.128 >>>>>>>>> traceroute to google.com (173.194.41.128), 64 hops max, 52 = byte packets >>>>>>>>> 1 172.30.42.1 (172.30.42.1) 0.631 ms 0.323 ms 0.249 ms >>>>>>>>> 2 * * * >>>>>>>>> 3 10.1.3.234 (10.1.3.234) 22.596 ms 21.241 ms 22.392 ms >>>>>>>>> 4 * 10.1.3.214 (10.1.3.214) 27.018 ms 26.703 ms >>>>>>>>> 5 10.1.4.249 (10.1.4.249) 29.682 ms 28.923 ms 27.479 ms >>>>>>>>> 6 * * * >>>>>>>>> 7 * 209.85.252.186 (209.85.252.186) 30.379 ms * >>>>>>>>> 8 72.14.238.55 (72.14.238.55) 25.745 ms 25.345 ms 25.594 = ms >>>>>>>>> 9 lhr08s03-in-f0.1e100.net (173.194.41.128) 27.566 ms = 27.390 ms 27.663 ms >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> mtr shows packet losses at hops 2-5=20 >>>>>>>>> 10.1.3.* are Internet Watch Foundation. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> This looks pretty reasonable for an adsl link (could be = way worse with higher interleaving) >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Netalyzr was used. I appreciate it is an imperfect metric. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> OK. Like the ping train idea. Cannot get netperf 2.6.0 to build = on Ubuntu 12.04 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> So I typically run a 1000 count ping against the nearest host = that is on the other side of the DSL link that also gives consistent = ping RTTs without load. Then I start my test loads like saturating the = upload with a long runnig TCP transfer and opening 99 media heavy tabs = in a browser (I really should try the chrome benchmark that Dave is = using). And the I simply look through the ping statistic results, = typically I look at the maximum, and at the standard deviation to get a = handle on how tight the shaper held latency under control. (If I should = get netperf-wrapper to work under Macosx I will try to use that for = testing, but it does not even install, and if I get past that hurdle I = will have to adjust for the differences between Gnu ping and BSD ping). >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Best Regards >>>>>> Sebastian >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Well, I ran into this issue before. In short netalyzr's = worst case delay numbers do not seem to reflect how an fq_codelled = connection feels. =20 >>>>>>>> Netalyzr uses an unresponsive UDP probe to force the bottleneck = router's buffers to fill up; with unresponsiveness being a property no = sane flow over the intent should exhibit. Codel/fq_codel is tailored for = responsive flows and will only gradually increase its drop frequency so = responsive TCP flows will be controlled gently and keep link utilization = high. Given enough time codel will also rein in an unresponsive flows. = But netalyzr's probe duration is too short for that to be happening = during netalyzr's runtime. >>>>>>>> Fq_codel in my experience does a decent job at keeping = interactivity high even with competing traffic like netalyzr (so turn a = ping train against say 10.1.3.234 while netalyzr runs or try = netperf-wrapper in addition).=20 >>>>>>>> So netalyzr really probes the worst case buffer depth against = basically a "denial of service" type of load; I am not fully sure what = the expectancy on the disc here should be. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> best >>>>>>>> Sebastian >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> On 31 Jul 2013, at 21:38, Sebastian Moeller = wrote: >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> tc -s -d class show dev ge00 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Cerowrt-devel mailing list >>>>>>>>> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Cerowrt-devel mailing list >>>>>>> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel >>>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Cerowrt-devel mailing list >>>>> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Cerowrt-devel mailing list >>> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel >>=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_245E04F7-9B37-47EF-8603-57AA6C14EE07 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
From: Fred Stratton <fredstratton@imap.cc>
Subject: = Re: [Cerowrt-devel] cerowrt-3.10.2-1 dev release + = owamp
Date: 5 August 2013 11:45:33 BST
To: Sebastian Moeller = <moeller0@gmx.de>

On 5 Aug 2013, at 10:44, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> = wrote:

Hi Fred,


On Aug 4, = 2013, at 15:03 , Fred Stratton <fredstratton@imap.cc> = wrote:


On 3 Aug 2013, at 21:53, = Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> = wrote:

Hi = Fread,

Sorry for the = typo...



On Aug 3, 2013, at 12:36 , Fred Stratton <fredstratton@imap.cc> = wrote:

I cannot currently access the = gateway device.

AFAIK, Cerowrt does not allow setting up a = masquerade, and it is physically difficult to access. I wish I could = have a masquerade. The device has a fixed IP address of = 192.168.1.254.

Interestingly, I can access my = DSL-router on https://192.168.2.1 = through cerowrt without any required configuration or firewall changes = (and that also worked with 102.168.100.1 to the cable modem I used = before). Have you recently tried this again? I do not run the required = PPPOE client on cerowrt, but on the DSL-router.

You = are using 2 routers in series. I have disabled all routing functions on = the 2wire. It is transparent to the network.

Which is = exactly the situation I faced with the cable modem before; my = cerowrt-router was provisioned with an IP address through the bridged = cable-modem via DHCP, but I still could access the modem's 192.168.100.1 = with out any configuration required. I know there is some openwork = information (http:/= /wiki.openwrt.org/doc/howto/access.modem.through.nat) that makes it = look like one needs to do more involved fiddling with the firewall, but = that turned out not to be required with cerowrt. I do not know how that = works if one runs a pppoe client on cerowrt though and I left cerowrt's = ip address assignment in place. (My hunch is that since cerowrt leaves = the typical 192.168.N.N ranges alone the whole issue gets reduced to a = simple routing issue=85 and since Dave takes care that cero works well = as secondary (test) router in a typical home situation, I guess routing = 192.168.N.N is well with in cerowrt's scope)
But, I = guess you tried that already and it still does not work. Would be = interesting to learn why=85

The difference is that = you have the ISP gateway as a primary device issuing a DHCP address to = the cerowrt secondary router. The 2 devices are then obviously on the = same ipv4 subnet.

I use the 2700 transparently. DHCP is turned = off. If I turn it on, I have to use the device in DMZ mode with its = firewall on, which I do not want to do.

Initially, I used the = 2700 with the tomatoUSB router attached to that, and then a router = running openWRT. This setup allowed access to the 2700, through a = masquerade in tomatoUSB.

Although ipv6 addresses were propagated = throughout the network by Barrier Breaker, ipv6 did not work, probably = because of the way radvd works in tomato.

I have never used the = cerowrt as a secondary device because of this.



Openwrt has a = masquerade function, which has been removed. There is no doubt a good = reason for this.

Have you tried to assign an alias = to the WAN interface in the same subnet as the modem's IP? Might do the = trick=85



The target snr is set = high, so the device does not retrain for months, so the line speed = remains constant. The ISP I use has been sold by Telefonica to Sky, who = use a fixed 7.5 target snr, so this stability may go. I may change ISPs = to overcome this.

The device is a bridged 2wire 2700, which = provides a frequency graph.  This looked normal.

When I used = a Broadcom based router, and TomatoUSB -shibby - I could access the = device and run RouterStats in a wine bottle. The interference occurs at = 0700 and 0200 every day. I have had the street lights serviced. Chain = saws are a problem. Aldi or Lidl sell cheap chain saws which are not = well suppressed electrically and cause random interference.

I use = a VDSL grade NTE

Ah, in Germany XDSL capable = modems (i.e. VDSL and ADSL) have a bad reputation for ADSL lines (think = Jack of all trades, master of none) no idea whether that is deserved = though=85

I am referring to the network termination = wall plate, which contains rf chokes which function like the coil craft = device.

Well, so do DSL modems, but not = all chokes are of equal quality=85 that said I am quite impressed that = you have common mode chokes in the termination equipment. In Germany all = we get is a dumb frequency splitter, and with all IP telephony roll-out = not even that anymore :)

Te UK phone socket is = mounted on a standard box that is used for electrical sockets and = switches in house walls. It has 2 halves - a backplate, installed by the = phone company and attached to the line, and a front plate, which the end = user can change. A number are available containing different chokes. = There is a phone socket - a UK phone socket, bigger than RJ-11, and an = RJ-45 socket for internet equipment.


, with large line chokes, = shielded cables. and ferrite rings on the input phone = line.

I guess this is for common mode = rejection? When I had issues with a borderline del link in the past the = coil craft TRF-r11 (http://www.coilcraft.com/pdf_viewer/showpdf.cfm?f=3Dpdf_store:mod= jack.pdf) worked well for me. Then again ideally one would include = the common mode chokes to all lines going into the modem (including = ethernet and power).

All phones are = DECT.

The problem with a liberal Telecoms market is that there is = only one Wholesale provider, OpenReach. They will not investigate = anything other than voice line faults. The phone lines and cabinets are = over 60 years old.

Well, sure but that is not going = to change any time soon (as much as I think everybody should be = connected by optic fiber). Admittedly I have soft spot in my heart for = keeping infrastructure operating well past beyond its prime :) =


I am sure the 2700 is part of the = problem. However other choices, like a Thomson TG585v7, are associated = with similar uplink delays.

How do = you measure the uplink delay? Oh I just remembered you had issues with = getting netsurf 2.6 to work on ubuntu 12.4? Because Toke (https://github.com/toho= jo/netperf-wrapper) has prepared nice packages of netsur-wrapper for = ubuntu that include netsurf, so maybe you could try netsurf-wrapper to = test your latencies. (One caveat, as Dave noticed in ubuntu 12.4 the = saved plots from netsurf-wrapper suffer from a suboptimal python = matplotlib)

and does not hold the line = as well. despite its Broadcom SoC - the DSLAM is an Ericsson, which = returns BRCM.

I mention all this on list not just to answer your = question, but to describe a fairly typical situation. The majority of = users obtain internet service over a land line., these days via ASDL2+. = I have a liberal telecoms market,  can swap around the equipment II = have attached to a typical phone line perfectly legally to optimise the = signal I receive. Boxes like the 2wire and Thomson TG585v7 are what ISPs = provide.  
Cerowrt should at some point allow the ADSL user to = surf the web and download at the same time. =  

I know that this is not going to = help you, but my experience is that once I hooked up my cerowrt = (wndr3700) to one of the internal ethernet ports of my ISP supplied (and = remotely administered) DSL-router-modem-combo and switched all my = machines to connect to cero networks, the internet got a whole lot more = useable again immediately. Streaming and downloading and browsing the = web got possible again once the ISP's router was relieved of being the = bottleneck :)

I have, in effect, done = this.

Ah, and that did not improve = "interactivity"? That is a bit sad, and I would like to help, but it = seems I am at the end of my wits.

You have helped = considerably, providing a data point of what does work.

I may try = different qdiscs with stab

I do not want to use cable, which is = expensive. The DOCSIS box - a custom Netgear device - has a poor = reputation.

I do not want to use fibre, again, because when it = comes here, it will be supplied by BT/, and is traffic shaped and = capped. The BT web site has 35 pages of price increases for this = year.

I will continue with ADSL2+

Best
Sebastian



best regards
= Sebastian



On 3 Aug 2013, = at 10:38, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> = wrote:

Hi Fred,


On Aug 1, = 2013, at 00:35 , Fred Stratton <fredstratton@imap.cc> = wrote:


On 31 Jul 2013, at 23:14, = Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> = wrote:

Hi Fred,

thanks a = lot.


On Jul 31, 2013, at 23:37 , Fred Stratton <fredstratton@imap.cc> = wrote:

tc -s -d class show dev = ge00

class htb 1:10 parent 1:1 leaf 110: prio 0 quantum 1500 rate = 700000bit ceil 700000bit burst 1599b/1 mpu 0b overhead 0b cburst 1599b/1 = mpu 0b overhead 0b level 0
Sent 15809014 bytes 115190 pkt (dropped = 4733, overlimits 0 requeues 0)
rate 3616bit 3pps backlog 0b 0p = requeues 0
lended: 115190 borrowed: 0 giants: 0
tokens: 263560 = ctokens: 263560

class htb 1:1 root rate 700000bit ceil 700000bit = burst 1599b/1 mpu 0b overhead 0b cburst 1599b/1 mpu 0b overhead 0b level = 7
Sent 15809014 bytes 115190 pkt (dropped 0, overlimits 0 requeues = 0)
rate 3616bit 3pps backlog 0b 0p requeues 0
lended: 0 = borrowed: 0 giants: 0
tokens: 263560 ctokens: 263560

class = fq_codel 110:1b8 parent 110:
(dropped 0, overlimits 0 requeues 0) =
backlog 0b 0p requeues 0
deficit 84 count 0 lastcount 0 delay = 10us



tc -s -d class show dev ifb0
class htb 1:10 = parent 1:1 leaf 110: prio 0 quantum 1500 rate 7000Kbit ceil 7000Kbit = burst 1598b/1 mpu 0b overhead 0b cburst 1598b/1 mpu 0b overhead 0b level = 0
Sent 192992612 bytes 168503 pkt (dropped 0, overlimits 0 requeues = 0)
rate 17096bit 4pps backlog 0b 0p requeues 0
lended: 168503 = borrowed: 0 giants: 0
tokens: 27454 ctokens: 27454

class htb = 1:1 root rate 7000Kbit ceil 7000Kbit burst 1598b/1 mpu 0b overhead 0b = cburst 1598b/1 mpu 0b overhead 0b level 7
Sent 192992612 bytes = 168503 pkt (dropped 0, overlimits 0 requeues 0)
rate 17096bit 4pps = backlog 0b 0p requeues 0
lended: 0 borrowed: 0 giants: 0
tokens: = 27454 ctokens: 27454

class fq_codel 110:cc parent 110: =
(dropped 10, overlimits 0 requeues 0)
backlog 0b 0p requeues 0 =
deficit -198 count 1 lastcount 1 ldelay 2.3ms
class fq_codel = 110:1d9 parent 110:
(dropped 0, overlimits 0 requeues 0)
backlog = 0b 0p requeues 0
deficit 226 count 0 lastcount 0 ldelay 2us
class = fq_codel 110:1de parent 110:
(dropped 0, overlimits 0 requeues 0) =
backlog 0b 0p requeues 0
deficit 238 count 0 lastcount 0 ldelay = 10us
class fq_codel 110:345 parent 110:
(dropped 0, overlimits 0 = requeues 0)
backlog 0b 0p requeues 0
deficit 226 count 0 = lastcount 0 delay 9us

I changed the hard coded values in = /usr/lib/aqm/functions.sh to arbitrary values, rebooted and obtained the = same results. Both reflect the 7000kbit/s down and 700kbit/s up I = entered in the window.

What is the line rate as read out = from the del modem or specified in your contract?

Speedtest.net shows the rate as circa = 8.7 megabits/s down, 1 megabit/s up. Line has radio frequency = interference from unidentified sources..

So it = looks like specify a generous reserve for the shaper. Can you log into = your modem and get the current line rates? The rf interference, is it = constant (if you can get nice SNR per sub carrier or even ust bit = loading per frequency plots) that is does it only affect the same = frequencies or does it change? (I ask, because temporary interference = might reduce the effective line rate, potentially moving the buffer back = into the del modem)

Target snr upped to = 12 deciBel.  Line can sustain 10 megabits/s with repeated loss of = sync.at lower snr.  Contract is for = 'up to 20megabits/s'.  

So =  ADSL2+ as you even mentioned it before.

850 metres from exchange. Line length circa = 1.2km.






I ticked the adsl box. Altering the value in functions.sh = and unticking the box, with reboot, produced the same = outcome.

This nicely shows I screwed up my = testing (and or forgot to reboot between changes). Or I did try too high = a data rate (initially 97% of the raw link rate)





traceroute google.com
traceroute: Warning: google.com has multiple addresses; using = 173.194.41.128
traceroute to google.com (173.194.41.128), 64 hops max, = 52 byte packets
1  172.30.42.1 (172.30.42.1)  0.631 ms =  0.323 ms  0.249 ms
2  * * *
3  10.1.3.234 = (10.1.3.234)  22.596 ms  21.241 ms  22.392 ms
4 =  * 10.1.3.214 (10.1.3.214)  27.018 ms  26.703 ms
5 =  10.1.4.249 (10.1.4.249)  29.682 ms  28.923 ms =  27.479 ms
6  * * *
7  * 209.85.252.186 = (209.85.252.186)  30.379 ms *
8  72.14.238.55 = (72.14.238.55)  25.745 ms  25.345 ms  25.594 ms
9 =  lhr08s03-in-f0.1e100.net = (173.194.41.128)  27.566 ms  27.390 ms  27.663 = ms

mtr shows packet losses at hops 2-5
10.1.3.* are Internet = Watch Foundation.

This looks pretty reasonable for = an adsl link (could be way worse with higher = interleaving)


Netalyzr was used. I = appreciate it is an imperfect = metric.

OK.  Like the ping train = idea. Cannot get netperf 2.6.0 to build on Ubuntu = 12.04

So I typically run a 1000 count = ping against the nearest host that is on the other side of the DSL link = that also gives consistent ping RTTs without load. Then I start my test = loads like saturating the upload with a long runnig TCP transfer and = opening 99 media heavy tabs in a browser (I really should try the chrome = benchmark that Dave is using). And the I simply look through the ping = statistic results, typically I look at the maximum, and at the standard = deviation to get a handle on how tight the shaper held latency under = control. (If I should get netperf-wrapper to work under Macosx I will = try to use that for testing, but it does not even install, and if I get = past that hurdle I will have to adjust for the differences between Gnu = ping and BSD ping).


Best Regards
= Sebastian



Well, I ran into this issue = before. In short netalyzr's worst case delay numbers do not seem to = reflect how an fq_codelled connection feels.  
Netalyzr uses an = unresponsive UDP probe to force the bottleneck router's buffers to fill = up;  with unresponsiveness being a property no sane flow over the = intent should exhibit. Codel/fq_codel is tailored for responsive flows = and will only gradually increase its drop frequency so responsive TCP = flows will be controlled gently and keep link utilization high. Given = enough time codel will also rein in an unresponsive flows. But = netalyzr's probe duration is too short for that to be happening during = netalyzr's runtime.
Fq_codel in my experience does a decent job at = keeping interactivity high even with competing traffic like netalyzr (so = turn a ping train against say 10.1.3.234 while netalyzr runs or try = netperf-wrapper  in addition).
So netalyzr really probes the = worst case buffer depth against basically a "denial of service" type of = load; I am not fully sure what the expectancy on the disc here should = be.


best
Sebastian








On 31 Jul 2013, at 21:38, = Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> = wrote:

tc -s -d class show dev = ge00

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