From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 144973BA8E; Sun, 17 Dec 2017 06:52:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.168.10.50] ([93.233.74.83]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx002 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MJk04-1ePRYz1dh6-00178Q; Sun, 17 Dec 2017 12:52:25 +0100 To: Dave Taht , Luca Muscariello Cc: dpreed@reed.com, bloat , "cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" References: <87bmjff7l6.fsf_-_@nemesis.taht.net> <1512417597.091724124@apps.rackspace.com> <87wp1rbxo8.fsf@nemesis.taht.net> From: Matthias Tafelmeier Message-ID: <1ee44b12-1247-1830-0388-63a4c74fb6d2@gmx.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87wp1rbxo8.fsf@nemesis.taht.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha384; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="J8UQpJo1J6OkO4QG2Vf4PL6nV8GmGTFCj" X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:rCA/cwD0LVWJmXRiQlP55IQJQeuta/138+fbVzx3bci1ruapj/k Y0T/f5n6rgdfOzENbngrfK8B/4Px8CawFtsWStI/uIoLQnL8xeskSGuPhyHtRD5WJczmC0v uENzwSjRUcxvPuKNLC8lydcdzzrW2+tQlxlCgfdhO4TW4kkf+zID3NdttCoMLvGXWpwrS76 3fHeiaTuugEE7ibl3Vh3g== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:HUPPuINKIqE=:Zu0ZzkGmj/Q0ayx+LDZK19 XCXqUK0A3mLA123/x6Yu1o5pipYZ3V/relS8NMZV4+tfXrPBs9FxBB1h4E9JRTf/4zo4/qDlg 1dSsvV5tgUUkj8iCxqhRlr2e32c27UG/b6P3hEgCd2MMwastAYU0XOhOIHfww8Dzs2tb86ULD Z7o3H7Hd/tUHhRVYS5/DYEBV7HevZK6tfWMTdCEhYWjqKaH5tuza9pBNhjT0w9/UU+nH2lsP2 uGbzeb3H66P32LpUIk/Z6t2tALxtmOKlf7Cz4ftesSs9hNnShrOhxwm0526yDiuJrzltlZnpp oBRJ37bIAlo3bHLsq+GuxZcxQMwizXs19scZJ/cSJU9YZNHnidBB/sMDmvcUktCwYKMa265xE LhmmbJRv+2uF44gGns2Rv5JlO6YW/gUQ5GlprpOJM9vbN5rzAg6Ow1/ikk6kTDpD/5Sx1shv+ 9w1OW+LXjJlCkyu0qWp1AvGmrbIPz4xiVM2zWWHSHJPFtQL29Gx78r7SZV9KEoQ2bwbhErHWG /piBZ0MnEf7NhXc5T50KLdvCjuid7JlyqW1ayfUmMH/p+O4x+mOfb2TgDgbml249Oten7A3HJ rujmFVcdnHEdfwmzOixb6aaW1S2d00Yl6jJMMv0gHabpkpIk5JJc61Y1loqljhbf8eVXHzIoX BL2b3jJr8LVfQoqbKuM0w+Hy4BAkn/vaf64UR5Kk9XJbahoq2RUXPIGANmo4eD9L1aZdFaJ2o 33qanMcVTTvahbBPaSEJ/eEP8x+JgXC3NKqrTvIg6ATTh/NFRC9noPl7Ursh+H9DG9Y+htizI VPDUU71nVf8OKfxq7zY89Tkh7PX6A== X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 07:21:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] DC behaviors today X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 11:52:32 -0000 X-Original-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 12:52:23 +0100 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 11:52:32 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --J8UQpJo1J6OkO4QG2Vf4PL6nV8GmGTFCj Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="X4irKW695SotnroFP9lj5HQwVBIwofJSs"; protected-headers="v1" From: Matthias Tafelmeier To: Dave Taht , Luca Muscariello Cc: dpreed@reed.com, bloat , "cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" Message-ID: <1ee44b12-1247-1830-0388-63a4c74fb6d2@gmx.net> Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] DC behaviors today References: <92906bd8-7bad-945d-83c8-a2f9598aac2c@lackof.org> <87bmjff7l6.fsf_-_@nemesis.taht.net> <1512417597.091724124@apps.rackspace.com> <87wp1rbxo8.fsf@nemesis.taht.net> In-Reply-To: <87wp1rbxo8.fsf@nemesis.taht.net> --X4irKW695SotnroFP9lj5HQwVBIwofJSs Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------A7C7BDAC75C83ECAFBDC31BB" Content-Language: de-DE This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A7C7BDAC75C83ECAFBDC31BB Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------35BD592B3584358B4BF09EC0" --------------35BD592B3584358B4BF09EC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I tend not to care as much about how long it takes for things that do > not need R/T deadlines as humans and as steering wheels do. > > Propigation delay, while ultimately bound by the speed of light, is als= o > affected by the wires wrapping indirectly around the earth - much slowe= r > than would be possible if we worked at it: > > https://arxiv.org/pdf/1505.03449.pdf Enchanting that somebody actually quantified this intricacy! *My* Addendum/Errata: The alternative to a 'fast lane' backbone is not necessarily a mast based microwave link as stated, which is probably infeasible/inflexible e= tc. They were mentioning 'weather-balloons' as well- which actually boils down to - I'm presuming this - the probably ongoing airborne platform internet extension attempts by Goggle/Lockheed Martin etc., you call them ... These attempts are not based on balloons, but airships ('dirigible'-balloons so to speak), being able to stay aloft for potentially years. That's widely known and so let's get them away, not out for that. NB. Airships are quite impressive for its own and therefore worth bein recherched for!!! What I actually wanted to posit in relation to that is that one could get sooner a c-cabable backbone sibling by marrying two ideas: the airborne concept ongoing as outlined plus what NASA is planning to bring about for the space backbone, e.g [1][2]. It's laser based instead of directed radio-wave only. Sure, both is in the speed range of c, apparantely, laser transmission has in addition a significantly higher bandwidth to offer. "10 to 100 times as much data at a time as radio-frequency systems"[3]. Attenuations to photons in clean atmospheric air are neglible (few mps - refractive index of about 1.0003), so actually a neglible slowdown - easily competing with top notch fibres (99.7% the vacuum speed of light). Sure, that's the ideal case, though, if cleverly done from the procurement of platforms and overall system steering perspective, might feasible. [1] https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2017/nasa-taking-first-steps-toward-= high-speed-space-internet [2] https://www.nasa.gov/feature/new-solar-system-internet-technology-debuts-= on-the-international-space-station [3] https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2017/tdrs-an-era-of-continuous-space= -communications --=20 Besten Gru=C3=9F Matthias Tafelmeier --------------35BD592B3584358B4BF09EC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 

I tend not to care as much about how long it takes f=
or things that do
not need R/T deadlines as humans and as steering wheels do.

Propigation delay, while ultimately bound by the speed of light, is also
affected by the wires wrapping indirectly around the earth - much slower
than would be possible if we worked at it:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1505.03449.pdf=

Enchanting that somebody actually quantified this intricacy!

My Addendum/Errata:

The alternative to a 'fast lane' backbone is not necessarily a mast based microwave link as stated, which is probably infeasible/inflexible etc.

They were mentioning 'weather-balloons' as well- which actually boils down to - I'm presuming this - the probably ongoing airborne platform internet extension attempts by Goggle/Lockheed Martin etc., you call them ...

These attempts are not based on balloons, but airships ('dirigible'-balloons so to speak), being able to stay aloft for potentially years. That's widely known and so let's get them away, not out for that.

NB. Airships are quite impressive for its own and therefore worth bein recherched for!!!

What I actually wanted to posit in relation to that is that one could get sooner a c-cabable backbone sibling by marrying two ideas: the airborne concept ongoing as outlined plus what NASA is planning to bring about for the space backbone, e.g [1][2]. It's laser based instead of directed radio-wave only. Sure, both is in the speed range of c, apparantely, laser transmission has in addition a significantly higher bandwidth to offer. "10 to 100 times as much data at a time as radio-frequency systems"[3]. Attenuations to photons in clean atmospheric air are neglible (few mps - refractive index of about 1.0003), so actually a neglible slowdown - easily competing with top notch fibres (99.7% the vacuum speed of light). Sure, that's the ideal case, though, if cleverly done from the procurement of platforms and overall system steering perspective, might feasible.


[1] htt= ps://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2017/nasa-taking-first-steps-toward-hig= h-speed-space-internet

[2] https://www.nasa.gov/feature/new-solar-system-internet-technology-d= ebuts-on-the-international-space-station

[3] https://www.n= asa.gov/feature/goddard/2017/tdrs-an-era-of-continuous-space-communicatio= ns

--=20
Besten Gru=C3=9F

Matthias Tafelmeier
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