* Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] [aqm] the side effects of 330ms lag in the real world
@ 2014-04-29 23:01 Hal Murray
0 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Hal Murray @ 2014-04-29 23:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: aqm, cerowrt-devel, bloat; +Cc: Hal Murray
> Also, what access method has 300 ms access latency, let alone 3 seconds?
> None that I know of, the meaningful comparison would be ADSL2+ at around
> 25ms and 3G at around 50-100ms.
I have an old/slow 256Kbit SDSL link.
I frequently see download bloat delays of over 3 seconds. I haven't seen 4,
close, but not quite.
--
These are my opinions. I hate spam.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* [Cerowrt-devel] the side effects of 330ms lag in the real world
@ 2014-04-29 1:24 Dave Taht
2014-04-29 7:08 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [aqm] " Mikael Abrahamsson
0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Dave Taht @ 2014-04-29 1:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bloat, aqm, cerowrt-devel
pretty wonderful experiment and video http://livingwithlag.com/
--
Dave Täht
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [aqm] the side effects of 330ms lag in the real world
2014-04-29 1:24 [Cerowrt-devel] " Dave Taht
@ 2014-04-29 7:08 ` Mikael Abrahamsson
2014-04-29 7:21 ` Fred Baker (fred)
2014-04-29 7:43 ` Tristan Seligmann
0 siblings, 2 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Mikael Abrahamsson @ 2014-04-29 7:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dave Taht; +Cc: aqm, cerowrt-devel, bloat
On Mon, 28 Apr 2014, Dave Taht wrote:
> pretty wonderful experiment and video http://livingwithlag.com/
Just so that everybody realises that this is an advertisement.
Also, what access method has 300 ms access latency, let alone 3 seconds?
None that I know of, the meaningful comparison would be ADSL2+ at around
25ms and 3G at around 50-100ms.
--
Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [aqm] the side effects of 330ms lag in the real world
2014-04-29 7:08 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [aqm] " Mikael Abrahamsson
@ 2014-04-29 7:21 ` Fred Baker (fred)
2014-04-29 7:56 ` Mikael Abrahamsson
2014-04-29 7:43 ` Tristan Seligmann
1 sibling, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Fred Baker (fred) @ 2014-04-29 7:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mikael Abrahamsson; +Cc: bloat, cerowrt-devel, aqm
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1547 bytes --]
On Apr 29, 2014, at 3:08 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Apr 2014, Dave Taht wrote:
>
>> pretty wonderful experiment and video http://livingwithlag.com/
>
> Just so that everybody realises that this is an advertisement.
>
> Also, what access method has 300 ms access latency, let alone 3 seconds? None that I know of, the meaningful comparison would be ADSL2+ at around 25ms and 3G at around 50-100ms.
Well, we could discuss international communications. I happen to be at Infocom in Toronto, VPN’d into Cisco San Jose, and did a ping to you:
ping -c 10 swm.pp.se
PING swm.pp.se (212.247.200.143): 56 data bytes
...
--- swm.pp.se ping statistics ---
10 packets transmitted, 10 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 249.368/342.038/456.376/71.902 ms
3 seconds is unusually high, although naval satcom is frequently in the 1.5-2.5 ms range. But I have a sample that I measured in a Dublin hotel that observed standing latencies of around 280 ms to San Jose, frequent latencies of seven seconds, and a peak of 9286 ms. Yes, the hotel DSL was horrendously misconfigured. It makes a great graphic for presentations.
> --
> Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se
>
> _______________________________________________
> aqm mailing list
> aqm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/aqm
----------------------------------------------------
The ignorance of how to use new knowledge stockpiles exponentially.
- Marshall McLuhan
[-- Attachment #2: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 195 bytes --]
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [aqm] the side effects of 330ms lag in the real world
2014-04-29 7:21 ` Fred Baker (fred)
@ 2014-04-29 7:56 ` Mikael Abrahamsson
2014-04-29 15:46 ` Dave Taht
2014-04-29 16:44 ` Jim Gettys
0 siblings, 2 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Mikael Abrahamsson @ 2014-04-29 7:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fred Baker (fred); +Cc: bloat, cerowrt-devel, aqm
[-- Attachment #1: Type: TEXT/PLAIN, Size: 571 bytes --]
On Tue, 29 Apr 2014, Fred Baker (fred) wrote:
> Well, we could discuss international communications. I happen to be at
> Infocom in Toronto, VPN’d into Cisco San Jose, and did a ping to you:
Yes, but as soon as you hit the long distance network the latency is the
same regardless of access method. So while I agree that understanding the
effect of latency is important, it's no longer a meaningful way of selling
fiber access. If your last-mile is fiber instead of ADSL2+ won't improve
your long distance latency.
--
Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [aqm] the side effects of 330ms lag in the real world
2014-04-29 7:56 ` Mikael Abrahamsson
@ 2014-04-29 15:46 ` Dave Taht
2014-04-29 16:51 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] " Aaron Wood
2014-04-29 16:44 ` Jim Gettys
1 sibling, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Dave Taht @ 2014-04-29 15:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mikael Abrahamsson; +Cc: bloat, Fred Baker (fred), cerowrt-devel, aqm
On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 12:56 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se> wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Apr 2014, Fred Baker (fred) wrote:
A couple points here.
1) The video went viral, and garnered over 600,000 new hits in the 12
hours since I posted
it here.
there is pent up demand for less latency. While the ad conflates
bandwidth with latency,
they could have published their RTTs on their local fiber network,
which is probably a
great deal less than dsl or cable. That counts for a lot when
accessing local services.
2) There is a lot of things an ISP can do to improve apparent latency
on the long haul
A) co-locating with a major dns server like f-root to reduce dns latency
B) co-locating with major services like google and netflix
publishing ping times to google for example might be a good tactic.
C) Better peering
>> Well, we could discuss international communications. I happen to be at
>> Infocom in Toronto, VPN’d into Cisco San Jose, and did a ping to you:
>
>
> Yes, but as soon as you hit the long distance network the latency is the
> same regardless of access method. So while I agree that understanding the
> effect of latency is important, it's no longer a meaningful way of selling
> fiber access. If your last-mile is fiber instead of ADSL2+ won't improve
> your long distance latency.
Well, it chops a great deal from the baseline physical latency, and most
people tend to access resources closer to them than farther away. An
american in paris might want to access the NYT, but Parisians La Monde.
Similarly most major websites are replicated and use CDNs to distribute
their data closer to the user. The physical RTT matters more and more
in the last mile the more resources are co-located in the local data center.
--
Dave Täht
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] [aqm] the side effects of 330ms lag in the real world
2014-04-29 15:46 ` Dave Taht
@ 2014-04-29 16:51 ` Aaron Wood
0 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Aaron Wood @ 2014-04-29 16:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dave Taht; +Cc: bloat, aqm, cerowrt-devel
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1388 bytes --]
On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 5:46 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Yes, but as soon as you hit the long distance network the latency is the
> > same regardless of access method. So while I agree that understanding the
> > effect of latency is important, it's no longer a meaningful way of
> selling
> > fiber access. If your last-mile is fiber instead of ADSL2+ won't improve
> > your long distance latency.
>
> Well, it chops a great deal from the baseline physical latency, and most
> people tend to access resources closer to them than farther away. An
> american in paris might want to access the NYT, but Parisians La Monde.
>
> Similarly most major websites are replicated and use CDNs to distribute
> their data closer to the user. The physical RTT matters more and more
> in the last mile the more resources are co-located in the local data
> center.
With my DSL connection, 80% of the latency to "most" things (dns, cdns,
etc) is between the modem and dslam. That's a place where fiber would fare
far better. I get 20-25ms to the first router after the dsl modem, and
then akamai and google are within 3-5ms of that.
(and was that american-in-paris comment aimed at me? ;)
La Monde is, amusingly, about 150ms from me here in Paris. But
nytimes.comis 270-280...
And the CDN used by lamonde.fr is 60ms away.
And 20-25ms of all of that is DSL overhead.
-Aaron
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2017 bytes --]
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] [aqm] the side effects of 330ms lag in the real world
2014-04-29 7:56 ` Mikael Abrahamsson
2014-04-29 15:46 ` Dave Taht
@ 2014-04-29 16:44 ` Jim Gettys
2014-04-29 16:57 ` Jim Gettys
2014-04-30 6:16 ` Mikael Abrahamsson
1 sibling, 2 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Jim Gettys @ 2014-04-29 16:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mikael Abrahamsson; +Cc: aqm, Fred Baker (fred), cerowrt-devel, bloat
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1880 bytes --]
On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 3:56 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Apr 2014, Fred Baker (fred) wrote:
>
> Well, we could discuss international communications. I happen to be at
>> Infocom in Toronto, VPN’d into Cisco San Jose, and did a ping to you:
>>
>
> Yes, but as soon as you hit the long distance network the latency is the
> same regardless of access method. So while I agree that understanding the
> effect of latency is important, it's no longer a meaningful way of selling
> fiber access. If your last-mile is fiber instead of ADSL2+ won't improve
> your long distance latency.
FIOS bufferbloat is a problem too.
Measured bufferbloat, symmetric 25/25 service in New Jersey at my inlaw's
house is 200ms (on the ethernet port of the Actiontec router provided by
Verizon). So latency under load is the usual problem.
Why would you think the GPON guys are any better in principle than cable or
DSL? Cable and DSL may be somewhat worse, just because it is older and
downward compatibility means that new modems on low bandwidth tiers are
even more grossly over buffered.
You can look at the netalyzr scatter plots in
http://gettys.wordpress.com/2010/12/06/whose-house-is-of-glasse-must-not-throw-stones-at-another/
Now, if someone gives me real fiber to the home, with a real switch fabric
upstream, rather than gpon life might be somewhat better (if the switches
aren't themselves overbuffered.... But so far, it isn't.
- Jim
- Jim
- Jim
>
>
> --
> Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>
>
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3964 bytes --]
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread* Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] [aqm] the side effects of 330ms lag in the real world
2014-04-29 16:44 ` Jim Gettys
@ 2014-04-29 16:57 ` Jim Gettys
2014-04-30 6:16 ` Mikael Abrahamsson
1 sibling, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Jim Gettys @ 2014-04-29 16:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mikael Abrahamsson; +Cc: aqm, Fred Baker (fred), cerowrt-devel, bloat
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2360 bytes --]
On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 12:44 PM, Jim Gettys <jg@freedesktop.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 3:56 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 29 Apr 2014, Fred Baker (fred) wrote:
>>
>> Well, we could discuss international communications. I happen to be at
>>> Infocom in Toronto, VPN’d into Cisco San Jose, and did a ping to you:
>>>
>>
>> Yes, but as soon as you hit the long distance network the latency is the
>> same regardless of access method. So while I agree that understanding the
>> effect of latency is important, it's no longer a meaningful way of selling
>> fiber access. If your last-mile is fiber instead of ADSL2+ won't improve
>> your long distance latency.
>
>
> FIOS bufferbloat is a problem too.
>
> Measured bufferbloat, symmetric 25/25 service in New Jersey at my inlaw's
> house is 200ms (on the ethernet port of the Actiontec router provided by
> Verizon). So latency under load is the usual problem.
>
> Why would you think the GPON guys are any better in principle than cable
> or DSL? Cable and DSL may be somewhat worse, just because it is older and
> downward compatibility means that new modems on low bandwidth tiers are
> even more grossly over buffered.
> You can look at the netalyzr scatter plots in
> http://gettys.wordpress.com/2010/12/06/whose-house-is-of-glasse-must-not-throw-stones-at-another/
>
>
Oh, I forgot to note: Netalyzr topped out at about 20Mbps: most of why
GPON looks good on those plots is just that the common lowest tier of
service (at the time that data was taken) it can't easily detect the bloat.
But if you perform other tests that don't have a bandwidth limit, the bloat
is there.
This reminds me I should ask Nick Weaver if he has more recent data...
- Jim
Now, if someone gives me real fiber to the home, with a real switch fabric
> upstream, rather than gpon life might be somewhat better (if the switches
> aren't themselves overbuffered.... But so far, it isn't.
> - Jim
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bloat mailing list
>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>>
>>
>
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4896 bytes --]
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread* Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] [aqm] the side effects of 330ms lag in the real world
2014-04-29 16:44 ` Jim Gettys
2014-04-29 16:57 ` Jim Gettys
@ 2014-04-30 6:16 ` Mikael Abrahamsson
1 sibling, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Mikael Abrahamsson @ 2014-04-30 6:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jim Gettys; +Cc: aqm, Fred Baker (fred), cerowrt-devel, bloat
On Tue, 29 Apr 2014, Jim Gettys wrote:
> Why would you think the GPON guys are any better in principle than cable or
Fiber != GPON. Fiber in Sweden is 99% active ethernet.
And the advertisement isn't about bufferbloat, I doubt they even know what
that is... Upside is that the equipment used in Sweden is usually cheap
ethernet switches which don't have buffering and might also use policing
instead of shaping which makes bufferbloat problem basically go away, but
on the other hand creates other problems.
--
Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] [aqm] the side effects of 330ms lag in the real world
2014-04-29 7:08 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [aqm] " Mikael Abrahamsson
2014-04-29 7:21 ` Fred Baker (fred)
@ 2014-04-29 7:43 ` Tristan Seligmann
1 sibling, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Tristan Seligmann @ 2014-04-29 7:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mikael Abrahamsson; +Cc: bloat, cerowrt-devel, aqm
On 29 April 2014 09:08, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se> wrote:
> Also, what access method has 300 ms access latency, let alone 3 seconds?
> None that I know of, the meaningful comparison would be ADSL2+ at around
> 25ms and 3G at around 50-100ms.
Latencies on my ADSL2+ connection in Johannesburg, South Africa to my
ISP, a host in the UK, and a host in the USA:
--- www.mweb.co.za ping statistics ---
10 packets transmitted, 10 received, 0% packet loss, time 9011ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 33.720/38.594/66.841/9.507 ms
--- anor.aduial.net ping statistics ---
10 packets transmitted, 10 received, 0% packet loss, time 9010ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 197.966/201.981/211.580/4.619 ms
--- speedtest.atlanta.linode.com ping statistics ---
10 packets transmitted, 10 received, 0% packet loss, time 9001ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 285.859/292.451/331.214/13.285 ms
And of course, I have bufferbloat mitigation in play.
--
mithrandi, i Ainil en-Balandor, a faer Ambar
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2014-04-30 6:16 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 6+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2014-04-29 23:01 [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] [aqm] the side effects of 330ms lag in the real world Hal Murray
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2014-04-29 1:24 [Cerowrt-devel] " Dave Taht
2014-04-29 7:08 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [aqm] " Mikael Abrahamsson
2014-04-29 7:21 ` Fred Baker (fred)
2014-04-29 7:56 ` Mikael Abrahamsson
2014-04-29 15:46 ` Dave Taht
2014-04-29 16:51 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] " Aaron Wood
2014-04-29 16:44 ` Jim Gettys
2014-04-29 16:57 ` Jim Gettys
2014-04-30 6:16 ` Mikael Abrahamsson
2014-04-29 7:43 ` Tristan Seligmann
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox