From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from complete.lackof.org (complete.lackof.org [198.49.126.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 54CDF3B2FF for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2016 21:35:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from taggart.lackof.org (c-67-183-84-60.hsd1.wa.comcast.net [67.183.84.60]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "taggart.lackof.org", Issuer "CAcert Class 3 Root" (verified OK)) by complete.lackof.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B156133E0094; Mon, 15 Feb 2016 19:35:07 -0700 (MST) Received: by taggart.lackof.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 166A11C6; Mon, 15 Feb 2016 18:35:07 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 (debian 1:2.8.0-4) with nmh-1.6 From: Matt Taggart To: dpreed@reed.com cc: "Rich Brown" , cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net In-reply-to: <1455552663.843710221@apps.rackspace.com> References: <56C0C6E3.6000700@taht.net> <9325CC61-3295-4EE1-984C-8C23BB6FE80A@gmail.com> <1455552663.843710221@apps.rackspace.com> Comments: In-reply-to dpreed@reed.com message dated "Mon, 15 Feb 2016 11:11:03 -0500." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 18:35:07 -0800 Message-Id: <20160216023507.166A11C6@taggart.lackof.org> X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on complete.lackof.org Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] archer c7v2 gets third party unupgradable firmware X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 02:35:09 -0000 dpreed@reed.com writes: > I'm giving a talk in a couple months at a very high level, about "what's > at stake" as we move into the era of "5G" (for lack of a better word, > this is what the media all think is happening, and what has the ear of > the FCC). > > I'd love to have a list of brands and models that have "gone dark" to > security improvements, bug fixing, and innovation - mainly just to > point at, implicitly shame the industry and its captured regulators, > etc. This will be a modest part of the talk, which has some other > well-docmented bombshells in it (like CG-NAT, for example, and the > predictable failure of "white spaces" and the CEO-driven, rather than > science-driven PCAST "spectrum sharing" that we are now experiencing). In addition to the "gone dark" concerns you mention, I think there are a couple larger issues in the "what's at stake" discussion that you might want to think about and include in your talk: 1) Just as we've seen cell phones all but replace "land lines"; smartphones, phablets, and tablets replace laptops and desktops; I think we are starting and will continue to see cell data replace home broadband. For the non-geek market, 4g/5g is more than fast enough (faster than a lot of DSL), already built-in and working, doesn't require setting up additional equipment(that sucks by default unless you are a geek that can fix it), already paid for, etc. For the average consumer, it's increasingly making more financial sense to just buy a capable phone/tablet with good data plan rather than deal with broadband, a laptop, etc. Most of my relatives seem to be going this route. This will result in further centralization of control of the internet. We're starting to see carriers in North America offering non-net-neural features like free data to certain sites (youtube, pandora, etc) but data caps for everything else. Many consumers will still be paying for Cable TV and have a need for their SmartTVs, gaming consoles, and IoT crap to connect to the internet. So the provided proprietary cable/DSL/fiber gateway will still have (crappy) wireless. And maybe they use that wireless on their phone/phablet/tablet, but the cell data will probably replace that soon. But they will no longer have a traditional "wifi router" as we have in the past. So it's not just _some_ models going dark, but _most_ will and the wifi router will become a geek niche market? Maybe the google and amazon premium wireless voice activated things will take over part of that niche? But most consumers may be giving up control of the network in their own house and won't be able to run something that properly solves bufferbloat/bad wifi/security problems/etc Maybe the OpenHardware SBC on Kickstarter world will be what geeks turn to to replace the commodity wifi router for running openwrt etc? Or the nuc offerings? But mainstream people are unlikely to do so. 2) Unrelated to wifi/routing, but it's getting increasingly difficult to run your own internet services. Running an SMTP server successfully now requires many hours a month of staying up on spamfighting tech, dealing with spammer attacks/phishing/poisoning/etc. Same with a web CMS. I think the freedombox and openwireless (cerowrt inspired) folks were insightful in realizing these problems were coming. But I don't know if we're any closer to solving them. dpreed, Who is your audience for this talk and what do you hope to achieve with your talk? -- Matt Taggart matt@lackof.org