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From: Rich Brown <richb.hanover@gmail.com>
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To: Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>
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Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] cerowrt-3.10.24-5 dev build released
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--Apple-Mail=_74E040FC-E891-4F60-9AF4-EDE511D812B5
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Hi Sebastian,

>> And while trying to make an intelligent guess, I wonder how to map =
none/tc_stab into DSL and/or ATM; if adsl is the same as DSL;
>=20
> 	No ADLS is one out of a family of xDSLs (digital subscriber =
lines). As far as I know SDSL does not use ATM, VDSL1 might use ATM and =
all ADSL variants use ATM.
>=20
>> and where ethernet fits into the scheme of things.
>=20
> 	Ethernet is also a link layer, one that does typically not show =
quantization as ATM does, selecting the ethernet link layer allows to =
still specify an overhead, and that is somewhat useful for VDSL (since =
VDSL often still uses PPPoE).

... and ...

>> - (I believe) Only two =93protocols=94 (above) require =93link layer =
adaptation": PPPoE (DSL/ADSL) and PPPoATM (PPP over ATM). All the others =
seem to be some variation on Ethernet. (Please correct me if I=92m =
wrong.)=20
>=20
> 	Well for PPPoATM I agree, but PPPoE is also used with VDSL which =
uses PTM in stead of ATM and has no quantization issues, but still =
profits from setting the overhead correctly so needs the link layer =
adaptation as well. Now, as far as I know PPPoATM is quite rare so I =
have no idea of how to deal with the common case automagically.

So basically, if I understand what you=92re saying, it=92s a big mess. =
:-)

Even though my desires conflict, I still hold out for the two goals of =
"working well enough for random people=94 and =93providing a platform =
for research=94.=20

I hunger for the first, because we want people to be able to use CeroWrt =
right away and not be scared off. (Rich=92s Rule of Trial Software: Each =
hurdle that you place in someone=92s way reduces the potential audience =
by half. :-) I am hopeful that we can find default settings that are =
=93good enough=94 for all link layers so that new people can see an =
improvement with CeroWrt. I am also mindful that the features will =
likely wind up in OpenWrt unchanged; it=92s worth struggling a bit with =
the GUI so that we minimize the folklore and misinformation surrounding =
its use.

The tester in me also is rooting for the second goal. We need to be able =
to test and tweak the entire queueing system. Making some of it =
accessible via the GUI will make it easier to experiment, but of course, =
limits the kinds of changes that could be made. (The lua scripts, =
though, do give a lot of flexibility.)

On to more concrete ideas:

- =46rom what you=92ve said, I don=92t have much hope for doing it =
automagically. But maybe we can provide clues to help the customer do to =
the right thing. Perhaps the first dropdown could be =93Link Layer =
Adjustments (used on DSL or ATM)=94 with options for =
=93None/ADSL/SDSL/VDSL over PTM/VDSL over ATM/PPPoATM=94 and maybe =
others. CeroWrt could automatically set the proper link layer =
adaptations for each. We could also include a link to the wiki for a =
flow chart for setting each of these cases, especially the questions =
they should ask their ISP.

- Would it be possible to keep from mentioning tc_stab in the GUI?=20

Thanks!

Rich

PS That was a nice discussion of the (wackiness of) ATM framing.=

--Apple-Mail=_74E040FC-E891-4F60-9AF4-EDE511D812B5
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=windows-1252

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div><div>Hi =
Sebastian,</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">And while trying to make an =
intelligent guess, I wonder how to map none/tc_stab into DSL and/or ATM; =
if adsl is the same as DSL;</div></blockquote><div style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space: pre;">	</span>No ADLS is one out of a family of =
xDSLs (digital subscriber lines). As far as I know SDSL does not use =
ATM, VDSL1 might use ATM and all ADSL variants use ATM.</div><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;">and&nbsp;where ethernet fits into the scheme of =
things.</div></blockquote><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">	</span>Ethernet =
is also a link layer, one that does typically not show quantization as =
ATM does, selecting the ethernet link layer allows to still specify an =
overhead, and that is somewhat useful for VDSL (since VDSL often still =
uses PPPoE).</div></blockquote><div><br></div>... and =
...</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;">- (I believe) Only two =93protocols=94 (above) =
require =93link layer adaptation": PPPoE (DSL/ADSL) and PPPoATM (PPP =
over ATM). All the others seem to be some variation on Ethernet. (Please =
correct me if I=92m wrong.)&nbsp;<br></div></blockquote><div =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:=
 Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space: pre;">	</span>Well for PPPoATM I agree, but =
PPPoE is also used with VDSL which uses PTM in stead of ATM and has no =
quantization issues, but still profits from setting the overhead =
correctly so needs the link layer adaptation as well. Now, as far as I =
know PPPoATM is quite rare so I have no idea of how to deal with the =
common case automagically.</div></blockquote></div><br><div><div>So =
basically, if I understand what you=92re saying, it=92s a big mess. =
:-)</div><div><br></div><div>Even though my desires conflict, I still =
hold out for the two goals of "working well enough for random people=94 =
and =93providing a platform for =
research=94.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>I hunger for the first, =
because we want people to be able to use CeroWrt right away and not be =
scared off. (Rich=92s Rule of Trial Software: Each hurdle that you place =
in someone=92s way reduces the potential audience by half. :-) I am =
hopeful that we can find default settings that are =93good enough=94 for =
all link layers so that new people can see an improvement with CeroWrt. =
I am also mindful that the features will likely wind up in OpenWrt =
unchanged; it=92s worth struggling a bit with the GUI so that we =
minimize the folklore and misinformation surrounding its =
use.</div><div><br></div><div>The tester in me also is rooting for the =
second goal. We need to be able to test and tweak the entire queueing =
system. Making some of it accessible via the GUI will make it easier to =
experiment, but of course, limits the kinds of changes that could be =
made. (The lua scripts, though, do give a lot of =
flexibility.)</div><div><br></div><div>On to more concrete =
ideas:</div><div><br></div><div>- =46rom what you=92ve said, I don=92t =
have much hope for doing it automagically. But maybe we can provide =
clues to help the customer do to the right thing. Perhaps the first =
dropdown could be =93Link Layer Adjustments (used on DSL or ATM)=94 with =
options for =93None/ADSL/SDSL/VDSL over PTM/VDSL over ATM/PPPoATM=94 and =
maybe others. CeroWrt could automatically set the proper link layer =
adaptations for each. We could also include a link to the wiki for a =
flow chart for setting each of these cases, especially the questions =
they should ask their ISP.</div><div><br></div><div>- Would it be =
possible to keep from mentioning tc_stab in the =
GUI?&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks!</div><div><br></div><div>Rich<=
/div><div><br></div><div>PS That was a nice discussion of the (wackiness =
of) ATM framing.</div></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_74E040FC-E891-4F60-9AF4-EDE511D812B5--