From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.gmx.net", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass DE-1" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B406208AD4 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2013 13:36:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from hms-beagle-3.home.lan ([217.254.130.56]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx001) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M1nbu-1VfCS115qc-00tlyu for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2013 22:36:11 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Sebastian Moeller X-Priority: 3 (Normal) In-Reply-To: <1387574550.00762811@apps.rackspace.com> Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 22:36:09 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <23CD1472-413D-47B1-84B3-4DE95DF78B64@gmx.de> References: <1D691810-3DD1-4899-9F63-E1713BD01840@gmail.com> <1387574550.00762811@apps.rackspace.com> To: dpreed@reed.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:2qVxq4RAj2FSYPPcfzyATlXYK7R3S2Yuf1P05mrr+KpEia55cdd BdKJwSYCw3B9lnUD71J0s4qf18fVTOxYBqk5jVyyF0FIJXA9mais6cnf2XcOjO6gkH6nGb1 2M272GN5c7U4CjCo03MbTgPpxZmcP6/ess2bVf67jzhxHksPC3MKKdV9vBPSgNo4C8UHMjz s4krIm/Hw6dSUU9h+eERA== Cc: "cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] Anything but "AQM" X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 21:36:14 -0000 Hi David, On Dec 20, 2013, at 22:22 , dpreed@reed.com wrote: > Given that there is no likelihood of making localized queue management = "intelligent" because it has no global information whatsoever, I = strongly suggest that "smart" "intelligent" and even "active" are hugely = misleading. > =20 > They are based on a completely false premise - that queues should be = allowed to build at all, and that local information can solve highly = transient global problems. > =20 > "Dumb Queue Management" is going to be far superior. Keep the queue = at zero length, and try to be fair. Well, this thread is about the "marketing" of the concept, we = assume that the solution Dave created by combining a number of great = components works much better than what is out there. Now we want other = people to want and get the fruits of Dave's work in their home router. = So I for one assume a catchy name is going to help to make it popular. = DQM will need another expansion than dumb QM to be a keeper... > =20 > There's a simple way to do the latter - use a filter (similar to a = Bloom filter) that captures recent/frequent users of the queue, and when = the queue on an outbound link grows more than about 2-3 packets (double = buffering is all you need to keep the link full) discard the most recent = and frequent packets (or send information that tells them to slow down). For the bloom filter have a look at the BLUE aqm, but the way I = understood the cam codel paper is that it basically does that keep the = standing queue short while allowing some burstiness in the input... > =20 > There's been a lot of wasted time and effort trying to build queues = long enough so that you can be "intelligent", but by then you have = already lost the battle. You've gotten into a positive feedback loop = where you have encouraged the endpoints to send more packets than you = can ever drain out of the queue. > =20 > I truly, truly do not understand why people don't look at realistic = network loads and structures. > =20 >=20 >=20 > On Friday, December 20, 2013 3:52pm, "Rich Brown" = said: >=20 > > Dave, > >=20 > > You wrote: > >=20 > > > What's in a name? AQM has been pretty thoroughly defined to equal > > > active queue *length* management and not packet scheduling. > > > Overloading "AQM" what cerowrt does is apt to cause even more > > > confusion in the field than it already does. We discussed using = LBO as > > > a word but that appears hopelessly overloaded with leveraged buy = out. > > > > > > I go back to one I liked a while back: > > > > > > Smart Queue Management. (SQM) > > > > > > This got dissed on the aqm list too, but so far a viable = alternative > > > TLA has not appeared. It's sufficiently different to hang a = different > > > definition off of ("Smart queue management is an intelligent > > > combination of better packet scheduling (flow queuing) techniques > > > along with with active queue length management (aqm)=94) > >=20 > > and > >=20 > > > Any ideas for a name for packet scheduling, prioritization, and = active > > > queue management better than just "AQM", or "QoS"? > > > > > > SQM "Smarter Queue Management" > > > CeroShaper > > > LBO Latency and Bandwidth Optimisation > >=20 > > I was prepared to agree with =93SQM=94, and had written a long note > > (below) when my brain uttered =93Intelligent Queue Management=94. > > I=92m not convinced that one is better than the other=85 > >=20 > > Rich > >=20 > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The benefits of SQM =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >=20 > > Wikipedia sez=85 SQM may refer to: > >=20 > > - Sociedad Qu=EDmica y Minera de Chile - a Chilean mining and = chemical > > enterprise > > - Software quality management > > - Spectrum quality management > > - Supplier Quality Management > > - Sensors Quality Management Inc. - provides unbiased evaluations of = a company's > > operations relating to issues of quality, service, cleanliness and = value > > - Sky Quality Meter, a device for measuring light pollution > >=20 > > and also : S=E3o Miguel do Araguaia airport IATA code > >=20 > > sqm may refer to : > >=20 > > - square metre > > - Windows Live Messenger log file extension > >=20 > > So it doesn=92t appear that there are any seriously conflicting uses = of that > > TLA=85 > >=20 > > And I prefer =93Smart Queue Management=94 to =93Smarter Queue > > Management=94. We=92ll leave to someone else to go out on the weak = branch > > and espouse =93Smarter queue management=94 and =93Smartest queue > > management=94. (What comes after that? =93Smart and a half=94, > > Smart**2"?) > >=20 > > Rich > > _______________________________________________ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > > > _______________________________________________ > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel