From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <chromatix99@gmail.com>
Received: from mail-la0-x22a.google.com (mail-la0-x22a.google.com
	[IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::22a])
	(using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits))
	(Client CN "smtp.gmail.com",
	Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK))
	by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2ABE21F38A;
	Fri, 20 Mar 2015 09:31:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by labe2 with SMTP id e2so15848001lab.3;
	Fri, 20 Mar 2015 09:31:57 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113;
	h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc
	:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to;
	bh=pY4CLqB6bGqkMstYFvbEPAZKCqtoNy0SguBO9A5LanU=;
	b=si15S9FCMmaBrl4Qnzq3HaIy/22SISZpS34/LyijEoWCbHXmGzcclaAE6eJWYIXSIq
	z0hgkkTI0j9M0NZNgJm/qPPCt3Kkg/rL00qr5/jm4HddULlDfMM5+JhAVrdz1qY/js5a
	ahMPs3sDUc3/e6S0yJ58QLdlxw9IR5NDT86+XROqgKqqGo0PoGrZiQlAz187rLcqmuaU
	ex7mSfH8MmQ+MiSeuR6gAkpZIy9jbiOn2CJvJnqU7mV6egc9ANGGYzhzqgG9j+pi6Ne+
	cllMaE83uZFoaES7F7tBlKe7hnbo3RCCe0AcYscsX+MZuh1cFjpnK1vLt6rGWTfTKQVv
	D8zA==
X-Received: by 10.112.64.193 with SMTP id q1mr73920004lbs.88.1426869117194;
	Fri, 20 Mar 2015 09:31:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from bass.home.chromatix.fi (188-67-157-19.bb.dnainternet.fi.
	[188.67.157.19])
	by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id p7sm1029576lag.7.2015.03.20.09.31.55
	(version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128);
	Fri, 20 Mar 2015 09:31:56 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2070.6\))
From: Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CA35CD7C-A717-4DCE-ADE6-0B81E1DCAB97@ifi.uio.no>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 18:31:53 +0200
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <2E2D6622-1791-4CBB-856E-CE7BA39D99E0@gmail.com>
References: <20150316203532.05BD21E2@taggart.lackof.org>
	<123130.1426635142@turing-police.cc.vt.edu>
	<b8526a9c-5305-4467-8fd2-a6d1e0016903@reed.com>
	<CAJq5cE2nLRKuq64vQgpPSQ01e2Mc5Vtguo6smQg+ySC8mLH=aQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<15A0911A-E3B7-440A-A26B-C5E1489EA98B@viagenie.ca>
	<CAJq5cE1UFgt6fpLxRH7m3VFUpziGZm9OLCCNFQ93QemH00CHaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1426773234.362612992@apps.rackspace.com>
	<CAA93jw5c_qzqPQdpnUPXi_QwuRwAjVEVdGUG02LBFfj2fs91LQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<D1309C0B.FD59F%jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com>
	<CAGhGL2DjauqAdjxRmgU1sBEMs89YNvseo3XDt5QTn8x1wLFSCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<D131A022.FD6D9%jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com>
	<CA35CD7C-A717-4DCE-ADE6-0B81E1DCAB97@ifi.uio.no>
To: Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2070.6)
Cc: "Livingood, Jason" <Jason_Livingood@cable.comcast.com>,
	"cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net"
	<cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net>, bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat]  DOCSIS 3+ recommendation?
X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13
Precedence: list
List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project
	<cerowrt-devel.lists.bufferbloat.net>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/options/cerowrt-devel>,
	<mailto:cerowrt-devel-request@lists.bufferbloat.net?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/cerowrt-devel>
List-Post: <mailto:cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net>
List-Help: <mailto:cerowrt-devel-request@lists.bufferbloat.net?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel>,
	<mailto:cerowrt-devel-request@lists.bufferbloat.net?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 16:32:28 -0000


> On 20 Mar, 2015, at 16:54, Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no> wrote:
>=20
> I'd like people to understand that packet loss often also comes with =
delay - for having to retransmit.

Or, turning it upside down, it=E2=80=99s always a win to drop packets =
(in the service of signalling congestion) if the induced delay exceeds =
the inherent RTT.

With ECN, of course, you don=E2=80=99t even have that caveat.

 - Jonathan Morton