From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lj1-x232.google.com (mail-lj1-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E27663B29E for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 06:18:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-lj1-x232.google.com with SMTP id x85-v6so19713220ljb.2 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 03:18:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=bN3SuZlzeu8A5aTTv9D7kTP6WpOOLo8YaaRLFRNn02s=; b=u76NoOpn1lIzJWNZqg8HZnT2eUffl62GOsl9RbWLdE4y2oWvjgjSV5PdPqwAX7BXQ1 YAnrDDreMSUEmTTbOyXBFM4lEzPyLEPIPZeXmnzT8dlQMkqtR8X6dFQmhEWN75XLO6B1 7wBKrX2pHb1StQJ1JWQ5R3tK/QHCBn/6Hkj35yqksmMlmpqiTG03WiaAy2m2QEJQsCnh 6KnrfHCUSIRoNzFhNbt9Nha5XpR4B8YLNCP9n/fmfQisq7FIrzsQQxTDXEBWiWq9eNYo QflYyl5hbDVk+MkEDHgPvUMAjN3CoMlhw6ewxvr3BdoXwtObcR329ICQtUPsfua7Gbqs WtCg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=bN3SuZlzeu8A5aTTv9D7kTP6WpOOLo8YaaRLFRNn02s=; b=fSuOkxLqKf4mXbA+KQpE7X4ImklV8p0a2+AqMzNT2GgJRdxN/tsMLiS6k22xgWT6Tf Owb8tvJlFlM8KLEz2GL8k2hGKjqlXusvMxSCE9/hV0DpimzDDbnaWzZg3JC6xQruXxtQ OTuJBwfcSNfvD2DfRVb1x0mLHz8paA2LSQWFNSDmVnvxhUnoCRINZ6g3crhHosGIep1R L3VWRxVYTDkG/5OJNtlf7VzvHByoEOqK1EAPJ2Lh8hoFWFEU6jctlvH3zqcuwILYkEw7 myp0T0vLN+LrWcKgUGM88fPTurD3pk5rRF8A6Zj4lJXNoud9i2IO+cu+wKnFPzv74eGZ nE9A== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWb1PK6upTXHYFhh7MTeZlI/BCGCNBd3rSvjS04zZyqpY7VoHdra qyY6T8LXeIwdepNnKAcplBs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/XncUWrNrM+6M02X8Mtufc4M/zRFg45ddvmyLnCewmabSaI7chUWrdmG3mYTGW7Tc+IYPVTGg== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:80d3:: with SMTP id r19-v6mr19490565ljg.151.1543317523654; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 03:18:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from jonathartonsmbp.lan (83-245-236-220-nat-p.elisa-mobile.fi. [83.245.236.220]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r10-v6sm508767ljj.71.2018.11.27.03.18.42 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 27 Nov 2018 03:18:42 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Jonathan Morton In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 13:17:57 +0200 Cc: "David P. Reed" , cerowrt-devel Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <50C5F8A3-B052-49AE-886E-65352BF628A2@gmail.com> References: <6F8CDBFF-8B8A-4B6B-BCE9-918A69354626@gmx.de> <13EA268F-994D-45FF-A0B2-1CAF4C530B4F@gmx.de> <1543278579.232231705@apps.rackspace.com> To: Mikael Abrahamsson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] security guidelines for home routers X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 11:18:45 -0000 > On 27 Nov, 2018, at 1:07 pm, Mikael Abrahamsson = wrote: >=20 > So we need to come up with a security regime that makes sense for the = most amount of people, and then try to still cater to the ones who want = to do more/less. For most people, I think the "floppy disk" security model is usually = appropriate - you can take your data out of your computer and put it in = your pocket, where nobody can read it without physically stealing it = from you first. Unfortunately it's hard to apply using modern = technology and paradigms, which try to move your data out of your house = entirely, for "convenience" (and to trawl through it for great = profitssss). This is also, for example, why IoT devices and voting machines built = using modern technology are perpetually insecure and unsecurable. Currently, the easiest way to build a machine that's *truly* secure is = to take something like a 6502 (which is still being manufactured by WDC) = and associated 74AHC-series logic chips, SRAMs and EEPROMs, a 4-layer = PCBs, all of which are built on crude enough technology to be physically = examined for backdoor devices in an airport-grade X-ray machine if = necessary. Then write the necessary software in assembly, which can be = translated to machine code (or at least verified) by hand if you're = truly paranoid, and toggle it in byte by byte on the front panel. Good luck getting a web browser running on one of those, though. - Jonathan Morton