From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from trammell.ch (trammell.ch [5.148.172.66]) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C42D421F261; Mon, 2 Mar 2015 01:41:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:26:9c2:4c1d:7ca:1e7c:fd3e] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:26:9c2:4c1d:7ca:1e7c:fd3e]) by trammell.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C99651A0032; Mon, 2 Mar 2015 10:40:37 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2070.6\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3E135866-8FAD-495E-A96D-97394FFC0271"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.5b5 From: Brian Trammell In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 10:40:37 +0100 Message-Id: <7B3E53F5-2112-4A50-A777-B76F928CE8F2@trammell.ch> References: To: Dave Taht X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2070.6) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 02 Mar 2015 06:55:40 -0800 Cc: "aqm@ietf.org" , "cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" , bloat Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [aqm] ping loss "considered harmful" X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2015 09:41:39 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3E135866-8FAD-495E-A96D-97394FFC0271 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 hi Dave, > On 02 Mar 2015, at 04:57, Dave Taht wrote: >=20 > On this thread over here, an otherwise pretty clueful user chose > openwrt's qos-scripts over the sqm-scripts, because sqm-scripts had > *higher ping loss*. I am not proud of the fact that I am not surprised by this. > How can we fix this user perception, short of re-prioritizing ping in > sqm-scripts? The real solution is to create a utility called "ping" that uses traffic = that gets prioritized the same way as the traffic you care about instead = of ICMP echo request/reply. Users don't care about the packets on the = wire so much as they do that you're supposed to ping things. We have a protocol for this called TWAMP = which shares the unfortunate property with all such = approaches that it requires the far end to be running a reflector (the = advantage of ICMP is the reflector is built into the kernel everywhere) = or worse a control protocol for setting reflectors up. Gaming protocols do this right - latency measurement is built into the = protocol. For the web we already have tools and reasonably well accepted = metrics (time to first byte). Wrap $YOUR_FAVORITE_BROWSER's perftools in = a ping -w utility and this problem goes away in that space. I = presume that rtcweb clients in the browser will take advantage of these = tools and provide measurements the same way games do. Andrew's hack is probably easier to actually get deployed in a = reasonable amount of time though. :) Cheers, Brian > -- > Dave T=C3=A4ht > Let's make wifi fast, less jittery and reliable again! >=20 > https://plus.google.com/u/0/107942175615993706558/posts/TVX3o84jjmb >=20 > _______________________________________________ > aqm mailing list > aqm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/aqm --Apple-Mail=_3E135866-8FAD-495E-A96D-97394FFC0271 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJU9DAVAAoJENt3nsOmbNJcVQEH/RV9aGFUTtg1OPCYmhzoQKa1 y2rsJs/FB6crrnbTycIc+9Dsma72FU1cQ1FBs2sNWCjDBvDU3qx91A5DeV+Q//yO NbO2LJBZH1SYiEWQzQ6GZpW4lTonG5HOULrbZfBOHGylyYn1KkEZpLxSIGlnkvVz ks5DgpbWNqWx24HvCI6vAnDGvvnyElW/Nn3DC3Lf3mob9p9FmFPipCQdW3ctn29h BZpGpULdJDiA9XYkU4EBn+xzvksn/VmoFTjTYbUNqO7FcXpsvsjb2ZTLHfNBfDV/ EkrDQhLyL6a7Y1sYX7n0WJfiIJU6u+WoewQrZNduJEwOb5R62/VanDWZQylZftA= =GmFY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_3E135866-8FAD-495E-A96D-97394FFC0271--