From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 960C53B29D for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 03:18:49 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1639729124; bh=GEMcD/GQCWZcchIdTx0EW440e86atl/vT9FXauLHi/I=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=VSON6aJr0/o9Oi4qO2liRcFOBnUHEEwMnSWMtBejWyqIDQK8tQBm9xU9Ha1nWxP5c J/koCGwiYKLe3rKZ8FESDCEqSZAgoITPrc6qQ+oOY3aY982LhJZv5QH9HraPGrh6q9 Gnj9TDYEHJ+93ceMMJp8N++dGA9FA75gNge9lVAY= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MqaxU-1mBvWe0Cxs-00mdvn; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 09:18:44 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 09:18:42 +0100 Cc: David Lang , cerowrt-devel Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7F1B6B98-2DE2-41A3-B47F-30B46E2736FB@gmx.de> References: <1639678615.275317887@apps.rackspace.com> <1639690165.936410589@apps.rackspace.com> <4927o62q-qq3-p947-qopq-89rppp637497@ynat.uz> To: =?utf-8?Q?Joel_Wir=C4=81mu_Pauling?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:G3MPygTa9h+pnDt1P+JsIuYj8mTGHLDCmKZkMxZTkQmrB//HZZT FVEeZCYyQujtk7YnzpwmCUPBKbgd82s8PsP4542hAjn26pZoJnGqoyd3ldz3DTvVj5b3fFJ SxwW131GXr7iGBhpdFnDLQ+hTWS1i6bKEgngR5V5EaPOZEBePaug8EuswYDw6geogd2eZpK p2mytRoJHjYdMqJAqJdYA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:uRqKUmaYzkA=:UcZIBw9zpNhfmMNJZZ1lbU HEaD+sG8UqiUDdp1kDnA1y1CIokydrAnycwuUbx3nBms/Y1B4LFhYUt5omfvI7JCheFV/rOQR Uhebb+XR080eX2tQdg+dq4pm0zHc+aTYwrrSL/p5Dc3pzZAVkQf04fAhZqOMrG9dXK2lR7Ka+ jyUHkPUJwmXgJAzjriIMOzaty5e/lBMPCdujoUfW35b0nigdvyiWp1P8amivTDhElL1Sa1ys6 NO/LwWP2jIuQRDXhJDiYFWCLhwjvn64tqGfSKlKKzwbYOv9wU/6nYoC/zeI+xN4xwJ0yb+ymO 3HlvIuMOdZfjhhvn2qfMcK1TLnHuxfmsoDrj9M3jtQ3EHJ9YUb9iNqdctvKZvjvWAMpAIOA0o 1ea1I9KYGaDYEyFxQ5q5rO02VwPRLCmRgEzaH86t4kMn7gUDvLPtI+fBG+DmpZ4gjV2iEGc5U ZrMtjzNuxzhA5OG1Jp9STslksD+3wpbvDYVWRQ5uYTSzsj2tp1H1Mwo5dLxNwYrBYQKgRptVR 99bccf68oX2ShhzPgIXoeVMG904aLDA6svb9exL28HXfyHDJZI6xxEZ7lGNCwWxoOGY/1SPrw q9mTdXCdLOjNqGclGZGiju/Axlyl56AnI+KvEJIptMVxxUZp9TUp3XkDMDXgYQa0uAHIckgjH fNdLL4hW7mfbY1+uTTR/oEJv2h4BtA+WdKL80nocTNd8u/bO2/Inb0NebqpJYt8HinpFSQP9m BG74PBZChvWSf+PS7mixD8E/3TaSSBjvvY+4zpjRTDH2if2J7po5L3pA8zkx/+SkDHbqlZc5k jDPUJUcvT7gP74yvKahcjYqZ+XtjpeacD8VvjP1rJjKvKMxkok6U2/azMTWGhL2bTJtFvftD/ 24ihJOaSaDypbJUothEBeNIZDB8XgKd0Jc5d8XRpOjxrNKuJAto6raE/Vm8tkQQ+gWSM8k1Oc qUgJT3ZCVXfn7pxYSI1oeS/ttzBfHvDdhaDjl8aq6huvjQbWYRuDuNvbFxabPJQ0B3BguZZyV LF/t816ueCW/NAoVCIeXGODr9VvwX7v72ls73bEpE9r6zDL5G01B8CnLjjbGH2aDts5YIE7XK f9loUXHTuHAjz8= Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] 10gige and 2.5gige X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:18:49 -0000 To add to Joel's point, I can do my own catX cable runs and connect sockets/plugs to the cables, = but I lack the tools for fiber-splicing... as cool as that would be it = is going to be hard to justify multi-100s EUR for a splicer.. That still = leaves short distance in the main computing area of an appartment/house, = but I doubt that many consumers have a concentration high enough to = justify the costs even there. What I do see over here in Europe, with FTTH-roll out speeding up, is = CPE that offer SFP/SFP+ cages for the WAN side though, SFP+ becoming = more common since ISPs started to deploy XGS-PON (gross 10Gpbs = bidirectionally, after FEC ~8.5 Gbps). Regards Sebastian P.S.: I have not started jumping on the 2.5 Gbps or higher train just = yet, none of my devices seems massively underserved with just 1Gbps yet = (with the potential exception of a single link where >=3D 2Gbps would be = nice since I am one cabe short and >2Gbps would allow to multiplex two = 1Gbps connections over that cable). > On Dec 16, 2021, at 22:57, Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling = wrote: >=20 > Yes but as much as I like fibre; it's too fragile for the average = household structured cabling real world use case. Not to mention nothing = consumwe comes with SFP+ in the home space. >=20 > On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, 10:43 am David Lang, wrote: > another valuable featur of fiber for home use is that fiber can't = contribute to=20 > ground loops the way that copper cables can. >=20 > and for the paranoid (like me :-) ) fiber also means that any = electrical=20 > disaster that happens to one end won't propgate through and fry other = equipment >=20 > David Lang >=20 > On Thu, 16 Dec 2021, David P. Reed wrote: >=20 > > Thanks, That's good to know...The whole SFP+ adapter concept has = seemed to me to be a "tweener" in hardware design space. Too many = failure points. That said, I like fiber's properties as a medium for = distances. > >=20 > >=20 > > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 2:31pm, "Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling" = said: > > > > > > > > > > Heat issues you mention with UTP are gone; with the [ 803.bz ]( = http://803.bz ) stuff (i.e Base-N).=20 > > It was mostly due to the 10G-Base-T spec being old and out of line = with the SFP+ spec ; which led to higher power consumption than SFP+ = cages were rated to draw and aforementioned heat problems; this is not a = problem with newer kit. > > It went away with the move to smaller silicon processes and now UTP = based 10G in the home devices are more common and don't suffer from the = fragility issues of the earlier copper based 10G spec. The AQC chipsets = were the first to introduce it but most other vendors have finally = picked it up after 5 years or feet dragging.=20 > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 7:16 AM David P. Reed <[ dpreed@deepplum.com = ]( mailto:dpreed@deepplum.com )> wrote: > > Yes, it's very cheap and getting cheaper. > >=20 > > Since its price fell to the point I thought was cheap, my home has a = 10 GigE fiber backbone, 2 switches in my main centers of computers, lots = of 10 GigE NICs in servers, and even dual 10 GigE adapters in a = Thunderbolt 3 external adapter for my primary desktop, which is a Skull = Canyon NUC. > >=20 > > I strongly recommend people use fiber and sfp+ DAC cabling because = twisted pair, while cheaper, actually is problematic at speeds above 1 = Gig - mostly due to power and heat. > >=20 > > BTW, it's worth pointing out that USB 3.1 can handle 10 Gb/sec, too, = and USB-C connectors and cables can carry Thunderbolt at higher rates. = Those adapters are REALLY CHEAP. There's nothing inherently different = about the electronics, if anything, USB 3.1 is more complicate logic = than the ethernet MAC. > >=20 > > So the reason 10 GigE is still far more expensive than USB 3.1 is = mainly market volume - if 10 GigE were a consumer product, not a = datacenter product, you'd think it would already be as cheap as USB 3.1 = in computers and switches. > >=20 > > Since DOCSIS can support up to 5 Gb/s, I think, when will Internet = Access Providers start offering "Cable Modems" that support customers = who want more than "a full Gig"? Given all the current DOCSIS 3 CMTS's = etc. out there, it's just a configuration change.=20 > >=20 > > So when will consumer "routers" support 5 Gig, 10 Gig? > >=20 > > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 11:20am, "Dave Taht" <[ = dave.taht@gmail.com ]( mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com )> said: > > > > > > > >> has really got cheap. > >>=20 > >> [ https://www.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter = ]( https://www.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter ) > >>=20 > >> On the other hand users are reporting issues with actually using > >> 2.5ghz cable with this router in particular, halving the achieved = rate > >> by negotiating 2.5gbit vs negotiating 1gbit. > >>=20 > >> [ https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D179145#p897836 ]( = https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D179145#p897836 ) > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> -- > >> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > >> [ https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org = ]( https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org ) > >>=20 > >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Cerowrt-devel mailing list > >> [ Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ]( = mailto:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ) > >> [ https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ]( = https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ) > >> _______________________________________________ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > [ Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ]( = mailto:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ) > > [ https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ]( = https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel = )_______________________________________________ > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > _______________________________________________ > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel