From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AEA4D3CB35; Fri, 1 May 2020 17:11:06 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1588367464; bh=JiigA77Ck9DSXLz9GKLC8zpH0YfBu8D/waxHAG0p5KM=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=etAzHECb489h6mwAQq4tS3S+jT6J1MaKzzFQrzCe9mRSLJoKcLL5aGs7Si6QPdY7w ELzNUUzUap+Dj9rQxETr4encugoQrcnp/W7IT8XyBVErHWKtQN/IUsqHjAUsX3xOl+ XATADhADnGw1Zt7iPXaP331IoyzFvdCRZMXHCoN4= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.42.222] ([77.10.170.135]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MAOJP-1jKUyp22wd-00BxLZ; Fri, 01 May 2020 23:11:04 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.14\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 23:11:03 +0200 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= , Cake List , Make-Wifi-fast , cerowrt-devel , bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8F8579BB-3B58-4E20-8827-3F09506E0D74@gmx.de> References: <05410663-5E50-4CF5-8ADE-3BBB985E32B1@gmx.de> To: Sergey Fedorov X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.14) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:A3+r9BiMTv0gYNyyuKE02ZJHh457ki7Ui/G3J2JOUa3yvY4X1vZ Q+TvtDf40Holtv0yybqAfNfi3LDpY3fx7HzYr8+kVbZ71eHORabdGasYDaoka+E72vHNlRl zAw0g9vvY8xuh8kjEcr1FejlLUf0uvz+vAnRn+dV/exDvaUPsty7XnrxaespPtkebmHKxgO tY/FiQ4AUOwHHZvis1/zQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:OLTO84VXz4I=:HEtyctH5/AzjevE8oZ1IHO Akuj+1RkI9f8q6MEpAOT5iNgZ1jXBOzbhsSHHVfm6ZNtuZdnYgD+9Usx7/kN5gc1Rq97FwHZ4 gRtOvMEpaWglT9MQ8+WkEdc74m/8AccorruiMieHtUJBzcCCf786ZPZAml0eFJps6h9X+bY5Y 8IZrnYmkN4fy4nD7/CdbUWEBwf0+/jlCVMKNP/xpF+nMtKTNYBabumWBLHXPwrSV566Tig7RQ UOhMoSPAIais2abbvaIgz3Ce2lP0hHLbYe+46pIIMjCJEYAuNg6R+1OFKfU5DL1KFOrR+vYl7 dalRN9gVBYrVCh5SsYfY0zIoBvcRoVxlL9G8sJ1GtDMWJ6F9Bqn0XLG771IWs489/vzLVXNEL 3gII3zFeW+Yqw55SwSU6xgON1Ae4Avfc+axBMbIpXSlwnVVHABR2LX1sijY/+98TLkBlH0olK ctXAUWMBX4Vhvrn96UZrg7bKmmDvRsaonnE+FqH9xLZ/Brzy/omR6dlfHCwZnWnL21hsrFcHi S8E2Pi7CFFoKAYZdVeCmfNjqlWxeQ1ATqxSAJiK4RNW34h7TDHlVRxwCuG+rxihTfzZlAFKfl yHoHWcxMHAQD8d/uRiWRYFQJwS3e4HWyRZx8BvNS3SzyioH5CVq1NKJH8PIy18bHE8j4NMPeo qtESzk4uOXE6AGhqkhIQUyzKxB3vreTXIUgn2/yHmPctyf49p44cnNWR/3nvQ/otwhXNppCAb llQ6Hqha+esF1OfAHGDeINlBnIHDxTKroODZFWcCPD3EZjieoEwQ+ivL+5WnUXSIfE8W6hMi6 l6QQU7r9cBhmAmwt4YwFI2EyffemYgq+trZxBggc+CNAHFn0KIKoAouuP0WKJOejyn1AsLLAU LTOlvCbrcG3Tit3WCzX16DAUH8a1DMOJADvhBj9XBrwiWSLHVDUKSpiFa81Iadn2xCuW/OT59 rcfxasaPWEZqSwL9jN/E90GcPGjAB2YONAOAefADV5oMcoU/iCP00Fv5EnEhrJPDTKBF4vxwa nLdJqGKU8Edv1ddvIqYynoFdx32hgQ/jjpp52dY1dp2OC3TffnvKx8geMiFXuLqaf2ehkhrJu hdR3HzY9ltudZGr7Ipfo05WaLpUxFyh65cJba0bbVDjupoPMkMxZqBu9/nMhsmIN+Y2p3GRw/ nDVckR3bErizlDng7vYz05en9gk8tcZJLIMutkCfIWNVQlQOK3HGdSlyzgLmQVXOCx3kufGbP XaVYcsBpyq2ZINwvR Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] [Cake] dslreports is no longer free X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 May 2020 21:11:07 -0000 Hi Sergey, > On May 1, 2020, at 22:09, Sergey Fedorov wrote: >=20 > Great review, Sebastian! > =20 > NETFLIX: fast.com. > Pros: allows selection of upload testing, supposedly decent = back-end, duration configurable > allows unloaded, loaded download and loaded upload RTT = measurements (but reports sinlge numbers for loaded and unloaded RTT, = that are not the max) > Cons: RTT report as two numbers one for the loaded and one for = unloaded RTT, time-course of RTTs missing > BUFFERBLOAT verdict: incomplete, but oh, so close... > Just a note that I have a plan to separate the loaded latency into = upload/download. It's not great UX now they way it's implemented. Great! I really appreciate the way fast.com evolves carefully to = not confuse the intended users and to stay true to its core mission = while it still gaining additional features that are not directly part of = Netflix business case to operate that test in the first place. Don't get = me wrong, I absolutely love that I can easily understand why you should = be interested in getting reliable robust speedtests from all existing or = potential customers to your back-end; and unlike an ISP's internal = speedtest, you are not likely to sugar coat things ;) as your goal and = the end-user's goal are fully aligned. > The timeline view is a bit more nuanced, in the spirit of the = simplistic UX, but I've been thinking on a good way to show that for = super users as well. Great again! I see the beauty of keeping things simple while = maybe hiding optional information behind an additional "click". > Two latency numbers - that's more user friendly, we want the general = user to understand the meaning. +1; for normal users that is already bliss. For de-bloating a = link however a bit more time resolution generally makes things a bit = easier to reason about ;) > And latency under load is much easier than bufferbloat. +1; as far as I can tell that term sort of was a decent = description of the observed phenomenon that then got a life of its own; = in retrospect it was not the most self explanatory term. I like to talk = about the latency-under-load-increase when helping people to debloat = their links, but that also is a tad on the long side. >=20 > As a side note, if our backend is decent, I'm curious what are the = backends for the speed tests that exist that are great :) Ah, I might have tried too hard at understatement, this was the = only back-end worth mentioning in the "pros" section... (well, I also like how breitbandmessung.de deals with their purposefully = limited backend (all located in a single" data center in Germany located = in an AS that is not directly owned by any ISP, it's the german = regulators official speedtest for germany against which we can = effectively measure and get an early exit from contracts if the ISPs can = not deliver the contracted rates (with a bit of slack))) Best Regards Sebastian > =20 > SERGEY FEDOROV > Director of Engineering > sfedorov@netflix.com > 121 Albright Way | Los Gatos, CA 95032 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 12:48 PM Sebastian Moeller = wrote: > Hi Dave, >=20 > well, it was a free service and it lasted a long time. I want to raise = a toast to Justin and convey my sincere thanks for years of investing = into the "good" of the internet.=20 >=20 > Now, the question is which test is going to be the rightful successor?=20= >=20 > Short of running netperf/irtt/iper2/iperf3 on a hosted server, I see = lots of potential but none of the tests are really there yet (grievances = in now particular order): >=20 > OOKLA: speedtest.net. > Pros: ubiquitious, allows selection of single flow versus = multi-flow test, allows server selection > Cons: only IPv4, only static unloaded RTT measurement, no = control over measurement duration > BUFFERBLOAT verdict: incomplete, maybe usable as load = generator >=20 >=20 > NETFLIX: fast.com. > Pros: allows selection of upload testing, supposedly decent = back-end, duration configurable > allows unloaded, loaded download and loaded upload RTT = measurements (but reports sinlge numbers for loaded and unloaded RTT, = that are not the max) > Cons: RTT report as two numbers one for the loaded and one for = unloaded RTT, time-course of RTTs missing > BUFFERBLOAT verdict: incomplete, but oh, so close... >=20 >=20 > NPERF: nperf.com > Pros: allows server selection, RTT measurement and report as = time course, also reports average rates and static RTT/jitter for Up- = and Download > Cons: RTT measurement for unloaded only, reported RTT static = only , no control over measurement duration > BUFFERBLOAT verdict: incomplete, >=20 >=20 > THINKBROADBAND: www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest > Pros: IPv6, reports coarse RTT time courses for all three = measurement phases > Cons: only static unloaded RTT report in final results, time = courses only visible immediately after testing, no control over = measurement duration > BUFFERBLOAT verdict: a bit coarse, might work for users within = a reasonable distance to the UK for acute de-bloating sessions (history = reporting is bad though) >=20 >=20 > honorable mentioning: > BREITBANDMESSUNG: breitbandmessung.de > Pros: query of contracted internet access speed before = measurement, with a scheduler that will only start a test when the = backend has sufficient capacity to saturate the user-supplied contracted = rates, IPv6 (happy-eyeballs) > Cons: only static unloaded RTT measurement, no control over = measurement duration > BUFFERBLOAT verdict: unsuitable, exceot as load generator, but = the bandwidth reservation feature is quite nice. >=20 > Best Regards > Sebastian >=20 >=20 > > On May 1, 2020, at 18:44, Dave Taht wrote: > >=20 > > = https://www.reddit.com/r/HomeNetworking/comments/gbd6g0/dsl_reports_speed_= test_no_longer_free/ > >=20 > > They ran out of bandwidth. > >=20 > > Message to users here: > >=20 > > http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest > >=20 > >=20 > > --=20 > > Make Music, Not War > >=20 > > Dave T=C3=A4ht > > CTO, TekLibre, LLC > > http://www.teklibre.com > > Tel: 1-831-435-0729 > > _______________________________________________ > > Cake mailing list > > Cake@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cake >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat