From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mout.gmx.net", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass DE-1" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 715AB21F91F; Tue, 7 Jul 2015 00:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from u-089-cab204a2.am1.uni-tuebingen.de ([134.2.89.3]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx001) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MTBLi-1ZdDRC0NXC-00S6Gw; Tue, 07 Jul 2015 09:20:36 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: <559B53E8.90201@isi.edu> Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2015 09:20:32 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <91B1B972-C481-4B70-941D-F29ED1D60980@gmx.de> References: <559B2513.3020909@isi.edu> <559B53E8.90201@isi.edu> To: Joe Touch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:NkbzBNf35ntNhuASip2OBrbXso/HknJE6GQgs/sBlgGcBiB2mPs CyfSE2Dr3IiRb/qn03JMp/cWoBAExjOYXLZIEWanEmaNqjNrLWCruWDVOEMn4HXyNCI1eGo XyYdB9kifgdTimnRzoKjCFZfMNJ0n7Y4xdpouIqTnxVyivU85ce8j+t6y1YJJJeRir+Fu9O bumOgZpIDE+imp8qfDyJw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:2V0B7paOzoE=:QIVqPGGtBGZEoBXDIsbr+L DoguEs6aib4Y4IcPJ5cCnUIUJV7NctkZ1Ktd5d1dj4unMVziqXuB1GWy2YH2KMEICAAVaEi1J HMvR+b9XMk+a9Qhe1rWbnpY6MPlSR+W8b6MkDblyLFJoYl7oHUoifjOgYgN4LDYWU3by19qxi OTJGoYSUBIEmdQSpVL4kiyi4Y2l6FnV+1Udu/ZlFCxDRHxa93IPKIdgg8wP8+94VZtlD4WbpB 5ooCNORUZEMe1LoYCWQiQiKTs7WzqvQVCa/AhgrmFu/M1SCvedsv0Z/X7hszFCCHgKe8FfWQW 6vB3yj6k7SB/uOSNmrdmPwFXTwa9VZjbRwyWI8/8ZiW9q6GBQE/QIKdS7yHtmVa5itcI3NTcZ iHZzYQHDqDn4jCfQwjSyVfsACUxI1eex5xhfbYfUKDj5gkc+CEw0k6JXiW2vc9n5eSZdOfJ3x WbvleDLLTDxYQzwd3ghGOyGgzWg5OwNAoLr5VvXuZcFCqC7X73PPNDyGAULYHiPUP/ryijcwV 5canAkuIT+whuZCjRS0FkT1PXhMKcWiPQD2wrXIn8of82FlvT0KenFCik8Z1y91pdy0LuEt++ hRv67NSqLEzQdwu3GluJacr6BZoCkXE/cdJOmeHBWpUsCJ2sMKMxW6FRKdH/7l9W0xNBIe5C+ AiD5SuzQd7J25y5g6NCTspIzYAy3XBH1vxmGIQ9NPkxa+sZgntvy69Qze8XOoQXNSeeE= Cc: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net, bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] failing to find the "declared victory" in a current wifi router X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 07:21:24 -0000 Hi Joe, I like your snark=85 And I like Rich=92s elegant restraint in his = response, always polite always friendly. On Jul 7, 2015, at 06:22 , Joe Touch wrote: > Hi, Rich, >=20 > On 7/6/2015 7:23 PM, Rich Brown wrote: >> Hi Joe, >>=20 >> The OpenWrt firmware project is a "some assembly required" affair.=20 >=20 > That might be less daunting if there were assembly instructions. I.e., > I'm suggesting that the instructions need revision. Work there could > have a significant payoff in a larger test community (I'm not exactly = a > hardware noob, but I found it annoyingly obfuscated). >=20 >> Although it's not always easy to find, the site has a number of = resources: >> - Buyer's Guide at http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/buyerguide >=20 > That is useful for picking from among the currently supported = versions, > but perhaps it'd be useful to take a colleague with you to a store and > see how helpful that all is. It's nearly impossible to find any of the > devices in the list or to verify whether a particular device in a box > has the required version of motherboard and firmware needed. I agree, it is almost inexcusable that the openwrt developers = do/did not strong-arm all hardware vendors into sane product naming = practices, like changing a products name when the interior parts change = ;) Honestly though, no one is really happy about the current state of = affairs I assume, but only the vendors are in a position to change this. = So I applaud your insight, but think you should bring this specific = discussion to the vendors... >=20 >> - The specific guidance to search Amazon for "OpenWrt" - see: = http://amzn.to/1mONYr0 >=20 > That turns up quite a bit of devices that aren't supported, FWIW. >=20 >> - The forum at: https://forum.openwrt.org/viewforum.php?id=3D10 = mentions lots of routers >=20 > Indeed; more isn't better. >=20 >> As for specific routers: >> - The WNDR3800 remains our gold standard for CeroWrt builds. It'll >> do SQM up to ~30 mbps, then the CPU runs out of gas. >=20 > May I also suggest moving to another standard that hasn't been > explicitly "end-of-life'd" by the manufacturer. Sure, what would you recommend? >=20 >> - Check the OpenWrt Table of Hardware (ToH) to see what other routers >> support the current stable 14.07/Barrier Breaker (BB) builds. >=20 > Sure - I spent several days in Target, Best Buy, and Fry's trying to > decipher whether particular products were supported - again often > difficult without UPC numbers (boxes don't always indicate version) Yes, luckily many stores offer a no-questions-asked return = policy, so that opening the box does not necessarily mean you have to = buy it. >=20 >> - Many people on this list have good luck with the TP-Link Archer C7 >> v2. I believe it'll route at cable speeds. I'm using it very >> successfully with OpenWrt BB release on a 7 mbps DSL line. >=20 > Here's a good example of how useful the information on the OpenWRT > website can be. Everyone seems to refer to this as "Archer C7", = everyone > except the TP-Link website. Their search finds no products matching = that > description, and the WIFI routers there are listed with other codes, > e.g.:TL-WDR7500 - except you won't find that number on the hardware = page > -- you have to click through to the page for that device. Google is my friend, third link from googling =93Archer C7 tp = link": http://www.tp-link.com/en/products/details/cat-9_Archer-C7.html Again, to-link is not very consistent with its naming, but please take = this fight to to-link, hoping that the openwrt/cerowrt crowd will be = able to fix to-link=92s site is a tad optimistic=85=20 >=20 > For that device, like for many, the most recent version (i.e., the one > more likely to arrive on a blind web order, or on most store shelves) = is > not yet supported. >=20 >> - If you have been following the Linksys WRT1900AC and WRT1200AC=20 >> thread at >> https://forum.openwrt.org/viewtopic.php?id=3D50173&action=3Dnewyou'll = see >> that the CC builds are sorta, kinda working. There are a lot of = moving >> pieces still, and despite the CC RC2 status, stable builds only come >> out a few days apart. I would stay away from it if you're not willing >> to participate in a science experiment. >=20 > Well, the 23-Apr-2015 build by Kaloz works fine - except that the SQM > package fails to install. What are the symptoms of that failure, if I might ask?=20 >=20 > What I'm baffled by here is that the main trunk builds leave LUCI out; > that's seems > quite short-sighted, IMO. I think the reasoning is that normal mortals should use stable = releases like BB which come with luci by default, trunk is targeting = people that can solve small issues like installing packages. That said, = I would also prefer if luci or at least a GUI would be part of the trunk = builds as well. One advantage of leaving luci and other non-essetials = out is that the firmware image stays small enough to also work on flash = starved devices... >=20 >> There is a team working to improve the OpenWrt site, but our work >> has not yet been "blessed" by the the admin's who maintain the core = pages of >> the site. >=20 > And I appreciate and understand that. The CeroWRT site could similarly > use an update. Cerowrt basically ended or at least went into deep hibernation, = the =93declaring victory=94 news item (http://www.bufferbloat.net/news/) = hints at that fact. >=20 > I.e., there's ample opportunity here to build a larger community with = a > few simple steps: >=20 > - refer to routers by the manufacturer's designation But this is what confused you by no end above (well that fact = that vendors change the hardware but keep the same name. > - create builds with both LUCI and (if possible) SQM So, normally if you install a trunk nightly build you should be = able to install packages for that image at the same time. The next day = the new nightly build will have replaced the one you installed, and that = will make most/many/all? packages not install anymore. Is this maybe the = failure case you have seen? > - make a short-list of a few currently available routers > for which an integrated build exists *for the most recent > motherboard version* Sure, that would be nice to have, for my taste the openwrt = hardware wiki contains quite a lot in that direction. Unless vendors = cooperate such a list will always be on a best effort basis, just as the = current openwrt hardware wiki is. >=20 > All of this could be done on the CeroWRT site until it can be put on > OpenWRT. Since it seems we are into volunteering other folks here, all of = this could also be done on your home page ;) I think I understand your = indignation at the current state, the best way to remedy this is to roll = up one=92s sleeves and help fix things that do not work well. Best Regards Sebastian >=20 > These are fairly direct ways to lower the bar, which seems = unnecessarily > high here. >=20 > Joe >=20 >> Best, >>=20 >> Rich Brown >>=20 >> On Jul 6, 2015, at 9:02 PM, Joe Touch wrote: >>=20 >>> Hi, all, >>>=20 >>> I'm posting because of my recent frustration with the claim that >>> bufferbloat solutions have been "pushed up into the OpenWRT and >>> commercial routers. >>>=20 >>> I spent the bulk of last weekend trying to find a COTS WIFI router = that >>> supported OpenWRT with bufferbloat (SQM) extensions. >>>=20 >>> I tried a Linksys WRT1200AC, and here's what I found: >>>=20 >>> - Kaloz's 23-Apr-2015 build installs fine and comes up >>> with a web server (LUCI), but does NOT include SQM >>>=20 >>> - trying to install the SQM packages fails >>> due to a kernel version incompatibility >>> (for a 23-Apr-2015 build?!) >>>=20 >>> - CC-rc2 doesn't have a WRT1200AC build >>> presumably I should have used mvebu-armada-385-linksys-caiman, >>> but it's not at all clear >>>=20 >>> - and I'd have to install LUCI and/or reinstall >>> factory firmware from the command line, and none >>> of that is all that clear, esp. a recovery route >>> that doesn't involve voiding warranty to wire in >>> a serial port >>>=20 >>> Given the "declared victory" (http://www.bufferbloat.net/news/53), >>> perhaps someone one one of these lists can explain why there's no = clear >>> information on a current device that supports a current build that >>> actually supports these fixes? >>>=20 >>> I.e., if you were trying to make this obscure, you're doing a very = good job. >>>=20 >>> FWIW. >>>=20 >>> Joe >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> =09 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Cerowrt-devel mailing list >>> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel >>=20 > _______________________________________________ > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel