From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 89B8B3B2A4; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 02:08:35 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1681452513; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=8BC5G6xCPgddtPBYhS4Abcyl9o2/6JeFFjF6gG3dS4M=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=a+Mz0wOJrplc/hoRYxGByt3COqggdFWU7dg5CqbYnLD+ZR/DMqx/vl8tuT+WX5eSK Z7tOTWAcSQzgsP6ISYBJYVkazBkCEyAT+HrGNveKXjCvsUDKH7cf51l2DP9bsKNPRp ItWw40qq8gPUMTwN1vBLfDmQR7wwif1Ze2Tq47pzCp1u/VM+TErMloeojm6F1+DgE4 xGaR6uY0R5Wt85YeWB4AHCQyDgCusQw+Tcur4Rdy4d1sS5d8JZKwXohw9lUYbWypZZ jAa1RrEQG8rzOfhoPs+uIhquL0VHUy7xN/gR98jAON0cWvTEr5zh60Wg9WyMZDjeRG LbtsxOsrRuLuw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([77.8.213.130]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MxUs7-1qXTVg3KNF-00xrcA; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 08:08:33 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.2\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 08:08:32 +0200 Cc: cerowrt-devel , bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9232C347-0DAD-478E-AA98-9BFFEDCB5773@gmx.de> References: To: =?utf-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.2) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:zOphS+kIDpFSi7sKuY8Jz904j5sqEK1FR2FKQAgfuXU7vU2VR01 3q8+MxpT/vL0QOmcNqQxeyzfDZ+yCuqw8j7cxlNTlPStmCvPV5UGo9UaujRgNj3I6w3+Ub+ Z7AR5YhHbS1S4Ww7HbRl00kBhCaI2tmgJZQldY9wSfqdzv648TKyVH66CkRoeiVECWpR8Ty I4uJ4Fsa+LxnAI6D7gTLQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:3z7iln3U2Jk=;rt89L229PRAKsvVTqGioGrzP1ZC JzG+fc2DsLFeHeYjw01siIgLdKXt2xOF5RaUgM2uvJQpDqleEG6SA3KeR84ljSjXlWu/7Z4g4 QvOfdOt0Qh4dHauZvgzbA6wEJBer4ptWVyZ0AKRxBt8xeyIE/IikAOViPO6Lw/wKwFtoCDMev O8uMMuj1b44sNsoGLlZyfQwpydgohq6loBEGPhaxryiv1agyLkR3wr7NYflTgrv1aMkgmifV4 F3j9R7npoDoL4p1wHv0IAlE41k1TU8mCKao3oRuVjPBo8CzhbeLib8Pr4bTp18ifUA9yc6/pk fyPoNZIFDNkJIokp7YDzUEY0A5LQJH9AgWsvcm8ggf0lXaXC6Bv6BNXNXXT77VvWZdjS2wnOa vLYYWmND0qtJIl/CEqy6AVmolUejjHsLIhZ20cD/vlAb/5esPdrxriFiRSMyTAHfgVJ9rDqQy I1tER3oW+SDI+gwynAUQEIB6+dpptKqj9GtlkNd/Bt/oeVDgcO5lWhvA9f15ti11IuYv+K5sJ AeZb7samMMyAcIDatFaRdgwKlUaagsnEx2Vnn1TC18FZmfVdYht5AsFO9oO2mOYVrzVkQ/+te kE+JkPn3sZWlZbMENMAnr8rG9KQo3gBrvqpD69ACCKAqpV9OwFEGdypt/RnpACkIgH7SnIlQ2 rfc32gtWzcHBwyZJP9ietSPGI3Zh2IcP/g2vTqcBsSfan2qxiG+HEbWYrOk6c5qipK0jtGOsO T5rZOO4VqRPHQWhvpG2MHJRTGf7U5NJnww+knxF/hVdaiHRiriRPCWgSiLtFNEpuZAu6ZQjZ+ P0zNodVI0zAAUWfhDDHqLZtXLvlpjLJ5WjzDExIAnjWIdWhXiIbQhBNuKYrTiyICQWa/I+sEN fqhyD3EcrQKDMoKFWM5X7uMQEIFsn93cXCGH8dQe+iQYYmaJ1MIbMAkkC6ZkqyhPv7kafjHaF iPhZv1PXgdHv+LWsF+c7V2S/O7o= Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] can bus attack X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 06:08:35 -0000 Hi Dave, > On Apr 14, 2023, at 06:04, Dave Taht via Cerowrt-devel = wrote: >=20 > The biggest bug with the early fq_codel deployment was that it dropped > from head and fq'd which led to the prospect of messages sent out of > order on the can protocol, which was not designed for that.. [SM] How did CAN react to this bug? Fixing its design or simply = requiring in-order-delivery? > After > much thought, we ended up overriding the default fq_codel qdisc, for a > fifo, for the can bus devices, but there were a few years there where > fq_codel was the default for can, in openwrt, which sometimes keeps me > awake at night. [SM] How many critical CAN bus implementations actually use = OpenWrt? I thought CAN is big in automobiles, so if any of those use = OpenWrt that would be interesting news ;) > This set of security bugs is bigger and essentially a message flood > attack on a FIFO, making it possible to steal a car via accessing the > headlamp, using a 10 dollar adaptor. Fascinating reading. >=20 > https://kentindell.github.io/2023/04/03/can-injection/ [SM] It appears automobile designers assumed a non-adversarial = environment, which is odd given that 3rd party diagnostic dongles that = interface with the car network/bus have been a thing for years. I guess the good thing is that we do have some well-tested = techniques to harden such a design (that are unlikely to be = retro-fitable into existing cars, assuming that vendors actually still = care about older models anyway). Regards Sebastian >=20 >=20 > -- > AMA March 31: = https://www.broadband.io/c/broadband-grant-events/dave-taht > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > _______________________________________________ > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel