From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oi0-x22f.google.com (mail-oi0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A75FD3B25D; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 12:52:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id x19so90071005oix.2; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TQJvez2Y+K9gUe0NScyaTBqJ8JOPdP6M3TRqbn7xYjE=; b=XZkZUukMzEUWGN+sB75xN1w4V01Gxu5gIcN4yMGT7Rr3nSaMYyUbPDewARhRQYjZvY t9MUZ++Myuzpz3GxqxdUh7m3uPoD2GWER79El5AZ6IctUWpYwcpSvpleTuBlA6q4pEU0 UjenASl5CxCIJ006IY/vrN2qcdewRSzAwEyKf58Hk9CrLUIAO65oFJlas+LrBxtxVHXe xU6sUkKgpfBNaMZSDq5ECSWMT0DtsjEOsKb6XU2eJtfbBVqaULzZLkiuSBLjDFdVe75E fzSTFY0ssM8zvgXOsg06qwLguZzh5cZVKkM0q3JRMwfsbpWYvFqLDWI5jpHJk7tEd5oS 8LsQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TQJvez2Y+K9gUe0NScyaTBqJ8JOPdP6M3TRqbn7xYjE=; b=Xh5KRWn3LQgc3T1U1batgd6JdakwmWDb6L8h9vjpc+6QhEwZMwCBUzUIc+Cfq68esG UjrPQRZRuhg7jSpDd24JcZlT3OArKEa9PNCFmvFCmSrdNsU/17AHfymKjr2p2QsH+DL/ vBGrZLLPrwfUEsRmsmCZQtZaROfozWymxhDA7sHzttmCkUgIBwkObCh55FhkpPJoH85k D7qHknVBUxfO5O89MkMHiz24mFw8bbS/xPhnvWyK8T2k+Z3OXW4f8xf0gFXw4IRHTu8e 2j4giE7SdBsz15rGF0APC96BlxOs0yTGKm/llBmrLO9cHomYPFpXp96K7SrNWCYncWaT ZE1Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FW7uOoNIPBqwk/MzvTn0+2m4qgli1TFBgwtqmWegZyBBLxxBsnG7D8+M/rqO5OC6/KCqS7IkFspuqY6NA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.216.68 with SMTP id p65mr7348489oig.152.1461862376983; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 09:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.78.23 with HTTP; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 09:52:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1461849006.60252745@apps.rackspace.com> <87oa8tyhug.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <878tzx4zno.fsf@toke.dk> <4F01E09C-FE7E-4ADA-A142-656969C1A3CC@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 09:52:56 -0700 Message-ID: From: Dave Taht To: Henning Rogge Cc: moeller0 , make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net, "babel-users@lists.alioth.debian.org" , "cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Make-wifi-fast] [Babel-users] perverse powersave bug with sta/ap mode X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 16:52:57 -0000 On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 9:05 AM, Henning Rogge wrote: > On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 5:04 PM, moeller0 wrote: >> >>> On Apr 28, 2016, at 15:43 , Toke H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen wrote: >>> Presumably the access point could transparently turn IP-level multicast >>> into a unicast frame to each associated station? Not sure how that woul= d >>> work in an IBSS network, though... Does the driver (or mac80211 stack) >>> maintain a list of neighbours at the mac/phy level? >> >> I believe the openwrt developers are thinking a long similar lines, see = e.g. https://lists.openwrt.org/pipermail/openwrt-devel/2015-June/033398.htm= l > > Why not just sending IP multicast (not 802.11 management frames) with > a higher rate (lowest best linkspeed to all known neighbors)? )I've always liked this idea as an enhancement to the existing 802.11 spec. It is flawed in that the "lowest best linkspeed" in minstrel decays to the lowest configured link rate for stations that have not been sampled recently. (Another thing I like about unicast IHU is that it would keep minstrel's statistics more current). I don't deeply how other rate controllers besides the old "samplerate" work - and only just last week finally put the minstrel paper up to review - (http://blog.cerowrt.org/post/minstrel/). If there are other documents on wifi rate controllers out there, like those in certain wifi chips, I'd love to read them.... And: I have found several devices in the field that cannot take anything but the base multicast rate, my old nexus 7 was like that. I note I'm not seeking a solution for ND/RA/ARP at the moment - in fact I'm trying to work on something other than routing protocols entirely ! - I would like it if people would stop trying to treat wifi as an ethernet equivalent and treat it as the now dominant paradigm it is, where ethernet is the exception rather than the rule, ethernet fallback as a "nice to have" rather than a necessity. For years I got along just fine on wifi + ethernet using the then common ahcp/babeld single ip methods ( http://blog.cerowrt.org/post/failing_over_faster/ ) I am unfond of turning formerly all multicast protocols into unicast, on wifi, as proposed for openwrt and for that matter, in the ietf. This might make for some background reading: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yourtchenko-colitti-nd-reduce-multicast-0= 0 Anyway, I put a couple pictures up at http://blog.cerowrt.org/post/poking_at_powersave/ - I have some data showing the ap/sta metric going to hell over a few minutes not in that post yet and I still ended up with some difficulties (I have not turned powersave off everywhere yet, repeatably, as I need to find the right hooks to tell Ap/sta mode in networkmanager/systemd/debian/openwrt to turn it off. (?)) - did I say I wasn't working on meshy protocols already? :grump: and I have a conference today and more new gear arriving to play with. > > Henning Rogge > _______________________________________________ > Make-wifi-fast mailing list > Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht Let's go make home routers and wifi faster! With better software! http://blog.cerowrt.org