[Cerowrt-devel] Fwd: geeks, internet

[Cerowrt-devel] Fwd: geeks, internet

[Dave Taht]

I note I really like the internet history mailing list.

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Dave Täht <dave@taht.net>
Date: Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 7:50 PM
Subject: geeks, internet
To: <dave.taht@gmail.com>


----- Forwarded message from the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
Internet-history <internet-history@elists.isoc.org> -----

Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 06:52:58 -1000
From: the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history
        <internet-history@elists.isoc.org>
To: Internet-history <internet-history@elists.isoc.org>
Subject: Re: [ih] Keep the geeks in charge of the internet

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Karl Auerbach <karl@cavebear.com>
Date: July 12, 2020 at 06:19:26 GMT+9

That piece demonstrates why "geeks" should *not* run the Internet.

Bodies such as ICANN have demonstrated time and time again that they are
incapable of resisting capture by organized business interests, such as the
trademark industry, and the domain name registry industry (which, though
ICANN's decades long self-blindness has created a multi $Billion per year
money pump of monopoly-rent profit.)

Over the years I've spent a fair amount of  time among both "geeks" and
"policymakers".

There are definitely many very intelligent people in those camps.  However
there are relative few "geeks" who understand economics, law, or social
forces.  The same can be said of the policymakers - there are many who's
depth of understanding of the Internet is no deeper than having an AOL
email account.

The voice of experts who know how a thing works, from top to bottom, is
essential.  But our world is like the fabled elephant in the tale of the
blind men who each perceive the creature as only the small piece that they
can touch and do not comprehend the total.  Those who are experts in one
field are often somewhat blind in other fields.

This is why we need governance by entities that strive for a synoptic view,
that operate on the basis of respect for all concerns and listen (and
consider) all voices.  The organs of decision of such entities ought to be
filled with intelligent, open-minded generalists.  Those generalists may
not comprehend the entire elephant, but they will know that whatever it is,
it is more than merely a tail or trunk or tree-like legs.

(This is part of the foundation of my argument that STEM education needs to
be balanced by a strong dose of liberal arts - we need to tune our
educations machinery to create those smart generalists.)

For many decades the Internet had an air gap from society.  That gap no
longer exists.  The Internet is now a fundamental critical infrastructure.
It is also being comprehended as a marvelous tool for control, data
gathering, public-opinion shaping, profit making, and a force in national an
international politics.

Take the 5G push for example.  At its edges it is starting to give off a
scent of attempting to be the new ISO/OSI.  There's some good stuff in 5G,
as there was in ISO/OSI.  But the decisions about deployment of 5G, it's
frequency bands, its use in vehicle-to-X communications, etc go well beyond
the merely technical.

If we let "the geeks" run the farm we can expect a lot of new Facebooks and
Zuckerbergs - lots of technology without comprehension of, nor care for,
the social impact.

Do we really want to resurrect a world run by trade guilds?  Is one going
to be required to go through an new kind of apprenticeship in order to have
a say, a say that must be heard even if not accepted, in how we pull and
turn the levers and knobs of our networks, health systems, power grids,
food distribution systems, etc etc?

Democracy, whether direct or representative, is our imperfect answer.  That
path is hard, slow, inefficient, and frustrating. But it is necessary.

We have to take care to learn from the past.  We ought to take a lesson
from things like ICANN, where the voice of the public interest is muted
under thick layers of complicated procedures, costs of effective
participation, and competition from well-funded industrial interests.

        --karl--

On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 1:09 AM *the keyboard of geoff goodfellow
<geoff@iconia.com <geoff@iconia.com>> wrote:*

> *By enabling people and businesses to remain connected while under
> lockdown, the Internet has helped to prevent the global economy from
> collapsing entirely. And yet the engineer-led nonprofit organizations that
> oversee the stable functioning of the global Internet are again under
> attack.*
> EXCERPT:
>
> The coronavirus pandemic has rapidly transformed the internet into the
> most critical infrastructure on Earth.
>
> By enabling people and businesses to remain connected while under
> lockdown, the internet has helped to prevent the global economy from
> collapsing entirely. Indeed, with fear and social distancing continuing to
> separate many of us, it has become the connective tissue for much human
> interaction and economic activity around the world.
>
> But few appreciate how this critical global resource has remained stable
> and resilient since its inception, even as its scope and scale have
> undergone uninterrupted explosive growth. In an age of widening political,
> economic, and social divisions, how has the “one internet” connecting the
> entire world been sustained? And how can we best continue to protect it?
>
> The answers to both questions start with understanding what makes the
> Internet — which consists of tens of thousands of disparate networks — look
> like and function as one network for all. These components, or unique
> internet identifiers, include Internet Protocol (IP) addresses, which are
> associated with every device connected to the internet, and internet domain
> names (like ft.com, harvard.edu or apple.news), which we use to search
> for and connect to computers easily.
>
> These unique identifiers ensure that, no matter where you are or which
> network you are connected to, you will always get in touch with the right
> computer with the desired domain name, or reach the right target device
> with an embedded IP number (such as a smart thermostat, for example). This
> simple, elegant architecture reflects the genius of a handful of brilliant
> engineers who created the internet a half-century ago. Since then, it has
> never failed to help us locate the billions of devices that have been added
> to the thousands of networks that make up today’s cyber economy. Should the
> identifiers fail, we would experience immediate digital chaos.
>
> Given the identifiers’ critical role, it is imperative that they not be
> compromised or controlled by any authority that is not committed to
> maintaining the internet as an open, global, common good. In the wrong
> hands, they could be used to fragment the Internet and enable top-down
> control of usage and users by governments with malign intentions. And such
> fears are real, given authoritarian governments’ online meddling in
> elections, national security networks and digital commercial transactions
> in the last few years.
>
> So, the key question is who should be entrusted today to maintain the
> security and reliability of internet identifiers. The answer is simple:
> geeks, not governments...
>
> [...]
>
> https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/geeks-not-governments-should-control-the-internet-by-fadi-chehade-2020-07
>
>
> https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2020/07/11/commentary/world-commentary/keep-geeks-charge-internet/
>
>
--
Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com
living as The Truth is True
--
Internet-history mailing list
Internet-history@elists.isoc.org
https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history

----- End forwarded message -----

--
My email server only sends and accepts starttls encrypted mail in transit.
One benefit - it stops all spams thus far, cold. If you are not encrypting
 by default you are not going to get my mail or I, yours.


-- 
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public
relations, for Mother Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman

dave@taht.net <Dave Täht> CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel: 1-831-435-0729

Re: [Cerowrt-devel] Fwd: geeks, internet

[William Allen Simpson]

Thanks.  I didn't know about the internet-history mailing list.
If I survive my covid vaccination today, I'll join it.
(My father died within 4 hours of his 1st Moderna dose.)

Strongly agree with Karl Auerbach.  I've had the opportunity of
living with a (now former) Member of Congress for 20+ years.

As I've said many times, all human interaction involves politics.
We Internauts designing and implementing standards are also
involved in politics, but are very bad at it.


On 3/31/21 12:17 AM, Dave Taht wrote:
> I note I really like the internet history mailing list.
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Dave Täht <dave@taht.net>
> Date: Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 7:50 PM
> Subject: geeks, internet
> To: <dave.taht@gmail.com>
> 
> 
> ----- Forwarded message from the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
> Internet-history <internet-history@elists.isoc.org> -----
> 
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 06:52:58 -1000
> From: the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history
>          <internet-history@elists.isoc.org>
> To: Internet-history <internet-history@elists.isoc.org>
> Subject: Re: [ih] Keep the geeks in charge of the internet
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Karl Auerbach <karl@cavebear.com>
> Date: July 12, 2020 at 06:19:26 GMT+9
> 
> That piece demonstrates why "geeks" should *not* run the Internet.
> 
> Bodies such as ICANN have demonstrated time and time again that they are
> incapable of resisting capture by organized business interests, such as the
> trademark industry, and the domain name registry industry (which, though
> ICANN's decades long self-blindness has created a multi $Billion per year
> money pump of monopoly-rent profit.)
> 
> Over the years I've spent a fair amount of  time among both "geeks" and
> "policymakers".
> 
> There are definitely many very intelligent people in those camps.  However
> there are relative few "geeks" who understand economics, law, or social
> forces.  The same can be said of the policymakers - there are many who's
> depth of understanding of the Internet is no deeper than having an AOL
> email account.
> 
> The voice of experts who know how a thing works, from top to bottom, is
> essential.  But our world is like the fabled elephant in the tale of the
> blind men who each perceive the creature as only the small piece that they
> can touch and do not comprehend the total.  Those who are experts in one
> field are often somewhat blind in other fields.
> 
> This is why we need governance by entities that strive for a synoptic view,
> that operate on the basis of respect for all concerns and listen (and
> consider) all voices.  The organs of decision of such entities ought to be
> filled with intelligent, open-minded generalists.  Those generalists may
> not comprehend the entire elephant, but they will know that whatever it is,
> it is more than merely a tail or trunk or tree-like legs.
> 
> (This is part of the foundation of my argument that STEM education needs to
> be balanced by a strong dose of liberal arts - we need to tune our
> educations machinery to create those smart generalists.)
> 
> For many decades the Internet had an air gap from society.  That gap no
> longer exists.  The Internet is now a fundamental critical infrastructure.
> It is also being comprehended as a marvelous tool for control, data
> gathering, public-opinion shaping, profit making, and a force in national an
> international politics.
> 
> Take the 5G push for example.  At its edges it is starting to give off a
> scent of attempting to be the new ISO/OSI.  There's some good stuff in 5G,
> as there was in ISO/OSI.  But the decisions about deployment of 5G, it's
> frequency bands, its use in vehicle-to-X communications, etc go well beyond
> the merely technical.
> 
> If we let "the geeks" run the farm we can expect a lot of new Facebooks and
> Zuckerbergs - lots of technology without comprehension of, nor care for,
> the social impact.
> 
> Do we really want to resurrect a world run by trade guilds?  Is one going
> to be required to go through an new kind of apprenticeship in order to have
> a say, a say that must be heard even if not accepted, in how we pull and
> turn the levers and knobs of our networks, health systems, power grids,
> food distribution systems, etc etc?
> 
> Democracy, whether direct or representative, is our imperfect answer.  That
> path is hard, slow, inefficient, and frustrating. But it is necessary.
> 
> We have to take care to learn from the past.  We ought to take a lesson
> from things like ICANN, where the voice of the public interest is muted
> under thick layers of complicated procedures, costs of effective
> participation, and competition from well-funded industrial interests.
> 
>          --karl--
> 
> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 1:09 AM *the keyboard of geoff goodfellow
> <geoff@iconia.com <geoff@iconia.com>> wrote:*
> 
>> *By enabling people and businesses to remain connected while under
>> lockdown, the Internet has helped to prevent the global economy from
>> collapsing entirely. And yet the engineer-led nonprofit organizations that
>> oversee the stable functioning of the global Internet are again under
>> attack.*
>> EXCERPT:
>>
>> The coronavirus pandemic has rapidly transformed the internet into the
>> most critical infrastructure on Earth.
>>
>> By enabling people and businesses to remain connected while under
>> lockdown, the internet has helped to prevent the global economy from
>> collapsing entirely. Indeed, with fear and social distancing continuing to
>> separate many of us, it has become the connective tissue for much human
>> interaction and economic activity around the world.
>>
>> But few appreciate how this critical global resource has remained stable
>> and resilient since its inception, even as its scope and scale have
>> undergone uninterrupted explosive growth. In an age of widening political,
>> economic, and social divisions, how has the “one internet” connecting the
>> entire world been sustained? And how can we best continue to protect it?
>>
>> The answers to both questions start with understanding what makes the
>> Internet — which consists of tens of thousands of disparate networks — look
>> like and function as one network for all. These components, or unique
>> internet identifiers, include Internet Protocol (IP) addresses, which are
>> associated with every device connected to the internet, and internet domain
>> names (like ft.com, harvard.edu or apple.news), which we use to search
>> for and connect to computers easily.
>>
>> These unique identifiers ensure that, no matter where you are or which
>> network you are connected to, you will always get in touch with the right
>> computer with the desired domain name, or reach the right target device
>> with an embedded IP number (such as a smart thermostat, for example). This
>> simple, elegant architecture reflects the genius of a handful of brilliant
>> engineers who created the internet a half-century ago. Since then, it has
>> never failed to help us locate the billions of devices that have been added
>> to the thousands of networks that make up today’s cyber economy. Should the
>> identifiers fail, we would experience immediate digital chaos.
>>
>> Given the identifiers’ critical role, it is imperative that they not be
>> compromised or controlled by any authority that is not committed to
>> maintaining the internet as an open, global, common good. In the wrong
>> hands, they could be used to fragment the Internet and enable top-down
>> control of usage and users by governments with malign intentions. And such
>> fears are real, given authoritarian governments’ online meddling in
>> elections, national security networks and digital commercial transactions
>> in the last few years.
>>
>> So, the key question is who should be entrusted today to maintain the
>> security and reliability of internet identifiers. The answer is simple:
>> geeks, not governments...
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/geeks-not-governments-should-control-the-internet-by-fadi-chehade-2020-07
>>
>>
>> https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2020/07/11/commentary/world-commentary/keep-geeks-charge-internet/
>>
>>
> --
> Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com
> living as The Truth is True
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history@elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> 
> ----- End forwarded message -----
> 
> --
> My email server only sends and accepts starttls encrypted mail in transit.
> One benefit - it stops all spams thus far, cold. If you are not encrypting
>   by default you are not going to get my mail or I, yours.
> 
> 

Re: [Cerowrt-devel] Fwd: geeks, internet

[William Allen Simpson]

Self-correction:

Turns out that my mail archives had a previous post here 2 years ago
mentioning internet-history, and the announcement on end2end-interest
list back on Fri, 20 Jul 2001.  But I'd never read either message.

In retrospect, a sad mistake on my part.

On 3/31/21 6:39 AM, William Allen Simpson wrote:
> Thanks.  I didn't know about the internet-history mailing list.
> If I survive my covid vaccination today, I'll join it.
> (My father died within 4 hours of his 1st Moderna dose.)
> 
> Strongly agree with Karl Auerbach.  I've had the opportunity of
> living with a (now former) Member of Congress for 20+ years.
> 
> As I've said many times, all human interaction involves politics.
> We Internauts designing and implementing standards are also
> involved in politics, but are very bad at it.
> 
> 
> On 3/31/21 12:17 AM, Dave Taht wrote:
>> I note I really like the internet history mailing list.
>>

Re: [Cerowrt-devel] Fwd: geeks, internet

[Toke Høiland-Jørgensen]

William Allen Simpson <william.allen.simpson@gmail.com> writes:

> Thanks.  I didn't know about the internet-history mailing list.
> If I survive my covid vaccination today, I'll join it.
> (My father died within 4 hours of his 1st Moderna dose.)
>
> Strongly agree with Karl Auerbach.  I've had the opportunity of
> living with a (now former) Member of Congress for 20+ years.
>
> As I've said many times, all human interaction involves politics.
> We Internauts designing and implementing standards are also
> involved in politics, but are very bad at it.

+1 - I've always considered the view "I don't want to do politics" to be
incredibly naive...

(also, that list looks like a delightful collection of old farts - think
I might just subscribe :D)

-Toke

Re: [Cerowrt-devel] Fwd: geeks, internet

[Dave Taht]

It would be really nice if there was some string I could pull to get
the senators behind this

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/100mbps-uploads-and-downloads-should-be-us-broadband-standard-senators-say/

to help morph this:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T21on7g1MqQZoK91epUdxLYFGdtyLRgBat0VXoC9e3I/edit?usp=sharing

into something actionable.

On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 3:39 AM William Allen Simpson
<william.allen.simpson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks.  I didn't know about the internet-history mailing list.
> If I survive my covid vaccination today, I'll join it.
> (My father died within 4 hours of his 1st Moderna dose.)

I am terribly sorry to hear that. I worry a lot about the rapidity of
the rollout here without regard for potential side-effects, and since
I've been so successfully self isolating on my boat,
and kind of used to it, generally have felt that it was better that
early adoptors and people that really need it get theirs first.

I also recently re-watched the stepford wives, which doesn't help.

>
> Strongly agree with Karl Auerbach.  I've had the opportunity of

Karl is a fascinating person and more people should read him and his blog.

> living with a (now former) Member of Congress for 20+ years.
>
> As I've said many times, all human interaction involves politics.
> We Internauts designing and implementing standards are also
> involved in politics, but are very bad at it.

I am willing to re-enter it, reluctantly.

>
>
> On 3/31/21 12:17 AM, Dave Taht wrote:
> > I note I really like the internet history mailing list.
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> > From: Dave Täht <dave@taht.net>
> > Date: Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 7:50 PM
> > Subject: geeks, internet
> > To: <dave.taht@gmail.com>
> >
> >
> > ----- Forwarded message from the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
> > Internet-history <internet-history@elists.isoc.org> -----
> >
> > Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 06:52:58 -1000
> > From: the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history
> >          <internet-history@elists.isoc.org>
> > To: Internet-history <internet-history@elists.isoc.org>
> > Subject: Re: [ih] Keep the geeks in charge of the internet
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> > From: Karl Auerbach <karl@cavebear.com>
> > Date: July 12, 2020 at 06:19:26 GMT+9
> >
> > That piece demonstrates why "geeks" should *not* run the Internet.
> >
> > Bodies such as ICANN have demonstrated time and time again that they are
> > incapable of resisting capture by organized business interests, such as the
> > trademark industry, and the domain name registry industry (which, though
> > ICANN's decades long self-blindness has created a multi $Billion per year
> > money pump of monopoly-rent profit.)
> >
> > Over the years I've spent a fair amount of  time among both "geeks" and
> > "policymakers".
> >
> > There are definitely many very intelligent people in those camps.  However
> > there are relative few "geeks" who understand economics, law, or social
> > forces.  The same can be said of the policymakers - there are many who's
> > depth of understanding of the Internet is no deeper than having an AOL
> > email account.
> >
> > The voice of experts who know how a thing works, from top to bottom, is
> > essential.  But our world is like the fabled elephant in the tale of the
> > blind men who each perceive the creature as only the small piece that they
> > can touch and do not comprehend the total.  Those who are experts in one
> > field are often somewhat blind in other fields.
> >
> > This is why we need governance by entities that strive for a synoptic view,
> > that operate on the basis of respect for all concerns and listen (and
> > consider) all voices.  The organs of decision of such entities ought to be
> > filled with intelligent, open-minded generalists.  Those generalists may
> > not comprehend the entire elephant, but they will know that whatever it is,
> > it is more than merely a tail or trunk or tree-like legs.
> >
> > (This is part of the foundation of my argument that STEM education needs to
> > be balanced by a strong dose of liberal arts - we need to tune our
> > educations machinery to create those smart generalists.)
> >
> > For many decades the Internet had an air gap from society.  That gap no
> > longer exists.  The Internet is now a fundamental critical infrastructure.
> > It is also being comprehended as a marvelous tool for control, data
> > gathering, public-opinion shaping, profit making, and a force in national an
> > international politics.
> >
> > Take the 5G push for example.  At its edges it is starting to give off a
> > scent of attempting to be the new ISO/OSI.  There's some good stuff in 5G,
> > as there was in ISO/OSI.  But the decisions about deployment of 5G, it's
> > frequency bands, its use in vehicle-to-X communications, etc go well beyond
> > the merely technical.
> >
> > If we let "the geeks" run the farm we can expect a lot of new Facebooks and
> > Zuckerbergs - lots of technology without comprehension of, nor care for,
> > the social impact.
> >
> > Do we really want to resurrect a world run by trade guilds?  Is one going
> > to be required to go through an new kind of apprenticeship in order to have
> > a say, a say that must be heard even if not accepted, in how we pull and
> > turn the levers and knobs of our networks, health systems, power grids,
> > food distribution systems, etc etc?
> >
> > Democracy, whether direct or representative, is our imperfect answer.  That
> > path is hard, slow, inefficient, and frustrating. But it is necessary.
> >
> > We have to take care to learn from the past.  We ought to take a lesson
> > from things like ICANN, where the voice of the public interest is muted
> > under thick layers of complicated procedures, costs of effective
> > participation, and competition from well-funded industrial interests.
> >
> >          --karl--
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 1:09 AM *the keyboard of geoff goodfellow
> > <geoff@iconia.com <geoff@iconia.com>> wrote:*
> >
> >> *By enabling people and businesses to remain connected while under
> >> lockdown, the Internet has helped to prevent the global economy from
> >> collapsing entirely. And yet the engineer-led nonprofit organizations that
> >> oversee the stable functioning of the global Internet are again under
> >> attack.*
> >> EXCERPT:
> >>
> >> The coronavirus pandemic has rapidly transformed the internet into the
> >> most critical infrastructure on Earth.
> >>
> >> By enabling people and businesses to remain connected while under
> >> lockdown, the internet has helped to prevent the global economy from
> >> collapsing entirely. Indeed, with fear and social distancing continuing to
> >> separate many of us, it has become the connective tissue for much human
> >> interaction and economic activity around the world.
> >>
> >> But few appreciate how this critical global resource has remained stable
> >> and resilient since its inception, even as its scope and scale have
> >> undergone uninterrupted explosive growth. In an age of widening political,
> >> economic, and social divisions, how has the “one internet” connecting the
> >> entire world been sustained? And how can we best continue to protect it?
> >>
> >> The answers to both questions start with understanding what makes the
> >> Internet — which consists of tens of thousands of disparate networks — look
> >> like and function as one network for all. These components, or unique
> >> internet identifiers, include Internet Protocol (IP) addresses, which are
> >> associated with every device connected to the internet, and internet domain
> >> names (like ft.com, harvard.edu or apple.news), which we use to search
> >> for and connect to computers easily.
> >>
> >> These unique identifiers ensure that, no matter where you are or which
> >> network you are connected to, you will always get in touch with the right
> >> computer with the desired domain name, or reach the right target device
> >> with an embedded IP number (such as a smart thermostat, for example). This
> >> simple, elegant architecture reflects the genius of a handful of brilliant
> >> engineers who created the internet a half-century ago. Since then, it has
> >> never failed to help us locate the billions of devices that have been added
> >> to the thousands of networks that make up today’s cyber economy. Should the
> >> identifiers fail, we would experience immediate digital chaos.
> >>
> >> Given the identifiers’ critical role, it is imperative that they not be
> >> compromised or controlled by any authority that is not committed to
> >> maintaining the internet as an open, global, common good. In the wrong
> >> hands, they could be used to fragment the Internet and enable top-down
> >> control of usage and users by governments with malign intentions. And such
> >> fears are real, given authoritarian governments’ online meddling in
> >> elections, national security networks and digital commercial transactions
> >> in the last few years.
> >>
> >> So, the key question is who should be entrusted today to maintain the
> >> security and reliability of internet identifiers. The answer is simple:
> >> geeks, not governments...
> >>
> >> [...]
> >>
> >> https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/geeks-not-governments-should-control-the-internet-by-fadi-chehade-2020-07
> >>
> >>
> >> https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2020/07/11/commentary/world-commentary/keep-geeks-charge-internet/
> >>
> >>
> > --
> > Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com
> > living as The Truth is True
> > --
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history@elists.isoc.org
> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >
> > ----- End forwarded message -----
> >
> > --
> > My email server only sends and accepts starttls encrypted mail in transit.
> > One benefit - it stops all spams thus far, cold. If you are not encrypting
> >   by default you are not going to get my mail or I, yours.
> >
> >
>


-- 
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public
relations, for Mother Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman

dave@taht.net <Dave Täht> CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel: 1-831-435-0729

Re: [Cerowrt-devel] Fwd: geeks, internet

[Karl Auerbach]

100mbits/second is to my mind rather inadequate.  It is surprising how 
chatty my house is even in the wee hours in this era of IoT and massive 
software updates for phones, cars, and toasters.

I have concern that policy is being made using a simple number 
("bandwidth") to represent something too complex to be characterized by 
any single number.

I wrote a note about that a while back, I think it dovetails with your 
point about obtaining "better bandwidth" based on the way bandwidth is 
going to be used:

Why You Shouldn't Believe Network Speed Tests - 
https://blog.iwl.com/blog/do_not_trust_speed_tests

(In a slightly different direction, way back in time I did a quite 
partial design of a protocol to evaluate hop-by-hop path characteristics 
in a lightweight way and in not much more than a small multiple of 
round-trip time. 
https://www.cavebear.com/archive/fpcp/fpcp-sept-19-2000.html   I still 
think we need something like that in order to improve the way that 
clients chose among replicated resources on the net.)

     --karl--

On 3/31/21 5:48 AM, Dave Taht wrote:
> It would be really nice if there was some string I could pull to get
> the senators behind this
>
> https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/100mbps-uploads-and-downloads-should-be-us-broadband-standard-senators-say/
>
> to help morph this:
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T21on7g1MqQZoK91epUdxLYFGdtyLRgBat0VXoC9e3I/edit?usp=sharing
>
> into something actionable.
>
> On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 3:39 AM William Allen Simpson
> <william.allen.simpson@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Thanks.  I didn't know about the internet-history mailing list.
>> If I survive my covid vaccination today, I'll join it.
>> (My father died within 4 hours of his 1st Moderna dose.)
> I am terribly sorry to hear that. I worry a lot about the rapidity of
> the rollout here without regard for potential side-effects, and since
> I've been so successfully self isolating on my boat,
> and kind of used to it, generally have felt that it was better that
> early adoptors and people that really need it get theirs first.
>
> I also recently re-watched the stepford wives, which doesn't help.
>
>> Strongly agree with Karl Auerbach.  I've had the opportunity of
> Karl is a fascinating person and more people should read him and his blog.
>
>> living with a (now former) Member of Congress for 20+ years.
>>
>> As I've said many times, all human interaction involves politics.
>> We Internauts designing and implementing standards are also
>> involved in politics, but are very bad at it.
> I am willing to re-enter it, reluctantly.
>
>>
>> On 3/31/21 12:17 AM, Dave Taht wrote:
>>> I note I really like the internet history mailing list.
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>> From: Dave Täht <dave@taht.net>
>>> Date: Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 7:50 PM
>>> Subject: geeks, internet
>>> To: <dave.taht@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Forwarded message from the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
>>> Internet-history <internet-history@elists.isoc.org> -----
>>>
>>> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 06:52:58 -1000
>>> From: the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history
>>>           <internet-history@elists.isoc.org>
>>> To: Internet-history <internet-history@elists.isoc.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [ih] Keep the geeks in charge of the internet
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>> From: Karl Auerbach <karl@cavebear.com>
>>> Date: July 12, 2020 at 06:19:26 GMT+9
>>>
>>> That piece demonstrates why "geeks" should *not* run the Internet.
>>>
>>> Bodies such as ICANN have demonstrated time and time again that they are
>>> incapable of resisting capture by organized business interests, such as the
>>> trademark industry, and the domain name registry industry (which, though
>>> ICANN's decades long self-blindness has created a multi $Billion per year
>>> money pump of monopoly-rent profit.)
>>>
>>> Over the years I've spent a fair amount of  time among both "geeks" and
>>> "policymakers".
>>>
>>> There are definitely many very intelligent people in those camps.  However
>>> there are relative few "geeks" who understand economics, law, or social
>>> forces.  The same can be said of the policymakers - there are many who's
>>> depth of understanding of the Internet is no deeper than having an AOL
>>> email account.
>>>
>>> The voice of experts who know how a thing works, from top to bottom, is
>>> essential.  But our world is like the fabled elephant in the tale of the
>>> blind men who each perceive the creature as only the small piece that they
>>> can touch and do not comprehend the total.  Those who are experts in one
>>> field are often somewhat blind in other fields.
>>>
>>> This is why we need governance by entities that strive for a synoptic view,
>>> that operate on the basis of respect for all concerns and listen (and
>>> consider) all voices.  The organs of decision of such entities ought to be
>>> filled with intelligent, open-minded generalists.  Those generalists may
>>> not comprehend the entire elephant, but they will know that whatever it is,
>>> it is more than merely a tail or trunk or tree-like legs.
>>>
>>> (This is part of the foundation of my argument that STEM education needs to
>>> be balanced by a strong dose of liberal arts - we need to tune our
>>> educations machinery to create those smart generalists.)
>>>
>>> For many decades the Internet had an air gap from society.  That gap no
>>> longer exists.  The Internet is now a fundamental critical infrastructure.
>>> It is also being comprehended as a marvelous tool for control, data
>>> gathering, public-opinion shaping, profit making, and a force in national an
>>> international politics.
>>>
>>> Take the 5G push for example.  At its edges it is starting to give off a
>>> scent of attempting to be the new ISO/OSI.  There's some good stuff in 5G,
>>> as there was in ISO/OSI.  But the decisions about deployment of 5G, it's
>>> frequency bands, its use in vehicle-to-X communications, etc go well beyond
>>> the merely technical.
>>>
>>> If we let "the geeks" run the farm we can expect a lot of new Facebooks and
>>> Zuckerbergs - lots of technology without comprehension of, nor care for,
>>> the social impact.
>>>
>>> Do we really want to resurrect a world run by trade guilds?  Is one going
>>> to be required to go through an new kind of apprenticeship in order to have
>>> a say, a say that must be heard even if not accepted, in how we pull and
>>> turn the levers and knobs of our networks, health systems, power grids,
>>> food distribution systems, etc etc?
>>>
>>> Democracy, whether direct or representative, is our imperfect answer.  That
>>> path is hard, slow, inefficient, and frustrating. But it is necessary.
>>>
>>> We have to take care to learn from the past.  We ought to take a lesson
>>> from things like ICANN, where the voice of the public interest is muted
>>> under thick layers of complicated procedures, costs of effective
>>> participation, and competition from well-funded industrial interests.
>>>
>>>           --karl--
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 1:09 AM *the keyboard of geoff goodfellow
>>> <geoff@iconia.com <geoff@iconia.com>> wrote:*
>>>
>>>> *By enabling people and businesses to remain connected while under
>>>> lockdown, the Internet has helped to prevent the global economy from
>>>> collapsing entirely. And yet the engineer-led nonprofit organizations that
>>>> oversee the stable functioning of the global Internet are again under
>>>> attack.*
>>>> EXCERPT:
>>>>
>>>> The coronavirus pandemic has rapidly transformed the internet into the
>>>> most critical infrastructure on Earth.
>>>>
>>>> By enabling people and businesses to remain connected while under
>>>> lockdown, the internet has helped to prevent the global economy from
>>>> collapsing entirely. Indeed, with fear and social distancing continuing to
>>>> separate many of us, it has become the connective tissue for much human
>>>> interaction and economic activity around the world.
>>>>
>>>> But few appreciate how this critical global resource has remained stable
>>>> and resilient since its inception, even as its scope and scale have
>>>> undergone uninterrupted explosive growth. In an age of widening political,
>>>> economic, and social divisions, how has the “one internet” connecting the
>>>> entire world been sustained? And how can we best continue to protect it?
>>>>
>>>> The answers to both questions start with understanding what makes the
>>>> Internet — which consists of tens of thousands of disparate networks — look
>>>> like and function as one network for all. These components, or unique
>>>> internet identifiers, include Internet Protocol (IP) addresses, which are
>>>> associated with every device connected to the internet, and internet domain
>>>> names (like ft.com, harvard.edu or apple.news), which we use to search
>>>> for and connect to computers easily.
>>>>
>>>> These unique identifiers ensure that, no matter where you are or which
>>>> network you are connected to, you will always get in touch with the right
>>>> computer with the desired domain name, or reach the right target device
>>>> with an embedded IP number (such as a smart thermostat, for example). This
>>>> simple, elegant architecture reflects the genius of a handful of brilliant
>>>> engineers who created the internet a half-century ago. Since then, it has
>>>> never failed to help us locate the billions of devices that have been added
>>>> to the thousands of networks that make up today’s cyber economy. Should the
>>>> identifiers fail, we would experience immediate digital chaos.
>>>>
>>>> Given the identifiers’ critical role, it is imperative that they not be
>>>> compromised or controlled by any authority that is not committed to
>>>> maintaining the internet as an open, global, common good. In the wrong
>>>> hands, they could be used to fragment the Internet and enable top-down
>>>> control of usage and users by governments with malign intentions. And such
>>>> fears are real, given authoritarian governments’ online meddling in
>>>> elections, national security networks and digital commercial transactions
>>>> in the last few years.
>>>>
>>>> So, the key question is who should be entrusted today to maintain the
>>>> security and reliability of internet identifiers. The answer is simple:
>>>> geeks, not governments...
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/geeks-not-governments-should-control-the-internet-by-fadi-chehade-2020-07
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2020/07/11/commentary/world-commentary/keep-geeks-charge-internet/
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com
>>> living as The Truth is True
>>> --
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history@elists.isoc.org
>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>
>>> ----- End forwarded message -----
>>>
>>> --
>>> My email server only sends and accepts starttls encrypted mail in transit.
>>> One benefit - it stops all spams thus far, cold. If you are not encrypting
>>>    by default you are not going to get my mail or I, yours.
>>>
>>>
>

Re: [Cerowrt-devel] Fwd: geeks, internet

[David Lang]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 12618 bytes --]

with multiple geeks in the house, I've survived for years with 8M down 1M up (I 
live in southern california in the middle of a city of >100k people and it's 
only in the last year I've been able to get better, which is 600/30 for $300/m).

100M is a lot (especially 100M upload)

My sister is in rural Michigan and the best she can get is 2M (until starlink), 
with 3 kids doing remote learning and her teaching. Not great, but they survived 
2020 with it.

yes, more is nice, but saying that 100Mb is not enough is ignoring the huge 
population that isn't getting 1/10 of that today.

David Lang

On Wed, 31 Mar 2021, Karl Auerbach wrote:

> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 09:55:45 -0700
> From: Karl Auerbach <karl@cavebear.com>
> To: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>,
>     William Allen Simpson <william.allen.simpson@gmail.com>
> Cc: cerowrt-devel <cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] Fwd: geeks, internet
> 
> 100mbits/second is to my mind rather inadequate.  It is surprising how 
> chatty my house is even in the wee hours in this era of IoT and massive 
> software updates for phones, cars, and toasters.
>
> I have concern that policy is being made using a simple number 
> ("bandwidth") to represent something too complex to be characterized by 
> any single number.
>
> I wrote a note about that a while back, I think it dovetails with your 
> point about obtaining "better bandwidth" based on the way bandwidth is 
> going to be used:
>
> Why You Shouldn't Believe Network Speed Tests - 
> https://blog.iwl.com/blog/do_not_trust_speed_tests
>
> (In a slightly different direction, way back in time I did a quite 
> partial design of a protocol to evaluate hop-by-hop path characteristics 
> in a lightweight way and in not much more than a small multiple of 
> round-trip time. 
> https://www.cavebear.com/archive/fpcp/fpcp-sept-19-2000.html   I still 
> think we need something like that in order to improve the way that 
> clients chose among replicated resources on the net.)
>
>     --karl--
>
> On 3/31/21 5:48 AM, Dave Taht wrote:
>> It would be really nice if there was some string I could pull to get
>> the senators behind this
>>
>> 
> https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/100mbps-uploads-and-downloads-should-be-us-broadband-standard-senators-say/
>>
>> to help morph this:
>>
>> 
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T21on7g1MqQZoK91epUdxLYFGdtyLRgBat0VXoC9e3I/edit?usp=sharing
>>
>> into something actionable.
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 3:39 AM William Allen Simpson
>> <william.allen.simpson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Thanks.  I didn't know about the internet-history mailing list.
>>> If I survive my covid vaccination today, I'll join it.
>>> (My father died within 4 hours of his 1st Moderna dose.)
>> I am terribly sorry to hear that. I worry a lot about the rapidity of
>> the rollout here without regard for potential side-effects, and since
>> I've been so successfully self isolating on my boat,
>> and kind of used to it, generally have felt that it was better that
>> early adoptors and people that really need it get theirs first.
>>
>> I also recently re-watched the stepford wives, which doesn't help.
>>
>>> Strongly agree with Karl Auerbach.  I've had the opportunity of
>> Karl is a fascinating person and more people should read him and his blog.
>>
>>> living with a (now former) Member of Congress for 20+ years.
>>>
>>> As I've said many times, all human interaction involves politics.
>>> We Internauts designing and implementing standards are also
>>> involved in politics, but are very bad at it.
>> I am willing to re-enter it, reluctantly.
>>
>>>
>>> On 3/31/21 12:17 AM, Dave Taht wrote:
>>>> I note I really like the internet history mailing list.
>>>>
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>> From: Dave Täht <dave@taht.net>
>>>> Date: Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 7:50 PM
>>>> Subject: geeks, internet
>>>> To: <dave.taht@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Forwarded message from the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
>>>> Internet-history <internet-history@elists.isoc.org> -----
>>>>
>>>> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 06:52:58 -1000
>>>> From: the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history
>>>>           <internet-history@elists.isoc.org>
>>>> To: Internet-history <internet-history@elists.isoc.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] Keep the geeks in charge of the internet
>>>>
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>> From: Karl Auerbach <karl@cavebear.com>
>>>> Date: July 12, 2020 at 06:19:26 GMT+9
>>>>
>>>> That piece demonstrates why "geeks" should *not* run the Internet.
>>>>
>>>> Bodies such as ICANN have demonstrated time and time again that they are
>>>> incapable of resisting capture by organized business interests, such as 
> the
>>>> trademark industry, and the domain name registry industry (which, though
>>>> ICANN's decades long self-blindness has created a multi $Billion per year
>>>> money pump of monopoly-rent profit.)
>>>>
>>>> Over the years I've spent a fair amount of  time among both "geeks" and
>>>> "policymakers".
>>>>
>>>> There are definitely many very intelligent people in those camps. 
> However
>>>> there are relative few "geeks" who understand economics, law, or social
>>>> forces.  The same can be said of the policymakers - there are many who's
>>>> depth of understanding of the Internet is no deeper than having an AOL
>>>> email account.
>>>>
>>>> The voice of experts who know how a thing works, from top to bottom, is
>>>> essential.  But our world is like the fabled elephant in the tale of the
>>>> blind men who each perceive the creature as only the small piece that 
> they
>>>> can touch and do not comprehend the total.  Those who are experts in one
>>>> field are often somewhat blind in other fields.
>>>>
>>>> This is why we need governance by entities that strive for a synoptic 
> view,
>>>> that operate on the basis of respect for all concerns and listen (and
>>>> consider) all voices.  The organs of decision of such entities ought to 
> be
>>>> filled with intelligent, open-minded generalists.  Those generalists may
>>>> not comprehend the entire elephant, but they will know that whatever it 
> is,
>>>> it is more than merely a tail or trunk or tree-like legs.
>>>>
>>>> (This is part of the foundation of my argument that STEM education needs 
> to
>>>> be balanced by a strong dose of liberal arts - we need to tune our
>>>> educations machinery to create those smart generalists.)
>>>>
>>>> For many decades the Internet had an air gap from society.  That gap no
>>>> longer exists.  The Internet is now a fundamental critical 
> infrastructure.
>>>> It is also being comprehended as a marvelous tool for control, data
>>>> gathering, public-opinion shaping, profit making, and a force in national 
> an
>>>> international politics.
>>>>
>>>> Take the 5G push for example.  At its edges it is starting to give off a
>>>> scent of attempting to be the new ISO/OSI.  There's some good stuff in 
> 5G,
>>>> as there was in ISO/OSI.  But the decisions about deployment of 5G, it's
>>>> frequency bands, its use in vehicle-to-X communications, etc go well 
> beyond
>>>> the merely technical.
>>>>
>>>> If we let "the geeks" run the farm we can expect a lot of new Facebooks 
> and
>>>> Zuckerbergs - lots of technology without comprehension of, nor care for,
>>>> the social impact.
>>>>
>>>> Do we really want to resurrect a world run by trade guilds?  Is one going
>>>> to be required to go through an new kind of apprenticeship in order to 
> have
>>>> a say, a say that must be heard even if not accepted, in how we pull and
>>>> turn the levers and knobs of our networks, health systems, power grids,
>>>> food distribution systems, etc etc?
>>>>
>>>> Democracy, whether direct or representative, is our imperfect answer. 
> That
>>>> path is hard, slow, inefficient, and frustrating. But it is necessary.
>>>>
>>>> We have to take care to learn from the past.  We ought to take a lesson
>>>> from things like ICANN, where the voice of the public interest is muted
>>>> under thick layers of complicated procedures, costs of effective
>>>> participation, and competition from well-funded industrial interests.
>>>>
>>>>           --karl--
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 1:09 AM *the keyboard of geoff goodfellow
>>>> <geoff@iconia.com <geoff@iconia.com>> wrote:*
>>>>
>>>>> *By enabling people and businesses to remain connected while under
>>>>> lockdown, the Internet has helped to prevent the global economy from
>>>>> collapsing entirely. And yet the engineer-led nonprofit organizations 
> that
>>>>> oversee the stable functioning of the global Internet are again under
>>>>> attack.*
>>>>> EXCERPT:
>>>>>
>>>>> The coronavirus pandemic has rapidly transformed the internet into the
>>>>> most critical infrastructure on Earth.
>>>>>
>>>>> By enabling people and businesses to remain connected while under
>>>>> lockdown, the internet has helped to prevent the global economy from
>>>>> collapsing entirely. Indeed, with fear and social distancing continuing 
> to
>>>>> separate many of us, it has become the connective tissue for much human
>>>>> interaction and economic activity around the world.
>>>>>
>>>>> But few appreciate how this critical global resource has remained stable
>>>>> and resilient since its inception, even as its scope and scale have
>>>>> undergone uninterrupted explosive growth. In an age of widening 
> political,
>>>>> economic, and social divisions, how has the “one internet” connecting 
> the
>>>>> entire world been sustained? And how can we best continue to protect it?
>>>>>
>>>>> The answers to both questions start with understanding what makes the
>>>>> Internet — which consists of tens of thousands of disparate networks — 
> look
>>>>> like and function as one network for all. These components, or unique
>>>>> internet identifiers, include Internet Protocol (IP) addresses, which 
> are
>>>>> associated with every device connected to the internet, and internet 
> domain
>>>>> names (like ft.com, harvard.edu or apple.news), which we use to search
>>>>> for and connect to computers easily.
>>>>>
>>>>> These unique identifiers ensure that, no matter where you are or which
>>>>> network you are connected to, you will always get in touch with the 
> right
>>>>> computer with the desired domain name, or reach the right target device
>>>>> with an embedded IP number (such as a smart thermostat, for example). 
> This
>>>>> simple, elegant architecture reflects the genius of a handful of 
> brilliant
>>>>> engineers who created the internet a half-century ago. Since then, it 
> has
>>>>> never failed to help us locate the billions of devices that have been 
> added
>>>>> to the thousands of networks that make up today’s cyber economy. Should 
> the
>>>>> identifiers fail, we would experience immediate digital chaos.
>>>>>
>>>>> Given the identifiers’ critical role, it is imperative that they not be
>>>>> compromised or controlled by any authority that is not committed to
>>>>> maintaining the internet as an open, global, common good. In the wrong
>>>>> hands, they could be used to fragment the Internet and enable top-down
>>>>> control of usage and users by governments with malign intentions. And 
> such
>>>>> fears are real, given authoritarian governments’ online meddling in
>>>>> elections, national security networks and digital commercial 
> transactions
>>>>> in the last few years.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, the key question is who should be entrusted today to maintain the
>>>>> security and reliability of internet identifiers. The answer is simple:
>>>>> geeks, not governments...
>>>>>
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>> 
> https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/geeks-not-governments-should-control-the-internet-by-fadi-chehade-2020-07
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 
> https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2020/07/11/commentary/world-commentary/keep-geeks-charge-internet/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com
>>>> living as The Truth is True
>>>> --
>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>> Internet-history@elists.isoc.org
>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>
>>>> ----- End forwarded message -----
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> My email server only sends and accepts starttls encrypted mail in 
> transit.
>>>> One benefit - it stops all spams thus far, cold. If you are not 
> encrypting
>>>>    by default you are not going to get my mail or I, yours.
>>>>
>>>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
>