From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ia0-x22d.google.com (ia-in-x022d.1e100.net [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c02::22d]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F160921F1E0 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2013 22:29:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ia0-f173.google.com with SMTP id h37so3358571iak.32 for ; Sun, 03 Feb 2013 22:29:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=kfZ+RfuHCH4zJSz8egR+AZqvk9HOg3pya8k2W4znQuI=; b=GgR4BWdLVomgxXjqWgfNX1luXezWho/ti+VJC4djk+x/qYOuy93upxZw1gHRxHPMx3 x9XKlT8l0LcxA05c8w+ANihVuEJgxQLauGxPlCIQY2bWtT8ShmA5pVdNmle1+HbwihVW r7sqYCOUbTE1kNtTjSleoVQin4Sh/cc5Pb6Lp+oDbepX7WbpjKIwYEYsog598ee11yxh i/QXu7y02ONFuaa/+KLXFpUT5CDDbl5DH+ChGt7cEwyoQktK76m3YFFzdAPZFzCG1lhW gGLLxv7v1ppCS1WBLP3kyxa4BlrfQ4l8mkl2QWEdF8DZxi8GLG5m7bl4zL2dkJNHp++j 8kJA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.42.247.8 with SMTP id ma8mr14459525icb.1.1359959380273; Sun, 03 Feb 2013 22:29:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.135.39 with HTTP; Sun, 3 Feb 2013 22:29:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2104238.aCilpchpBQ@markc> References: <2104238.aCilpchpBQ@markc> Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2013 22:29:40 -0800 Message-ID: From: Dave Taht To: Mark Constable Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba1efca0c52c2e04d4e037b8 Cc: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] stanford talk/deluged in hardware/yurtlab X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2013 06:29:41 -0000 --90e6ba1efca0c52c2e04d4e037b8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 10:09 PM, Mark Constable wrote: > On Sun, 3 Feb 2013 10:17:42 AM Dave Taht wrote: > > Well, I see it for 320. > > Yes, too much. At $220 it's good value and with a newer model out now > I expect this price to drop under $200 AUD (inc delivery) during 2013. > > > Then you need to add a SSD, > > I've got a 4 Bay 2.5" SATA Removable Rack for the CD slot so I see the > N40L as a catchall for my future hand me down 3.5" and 2.5" SATA drives > on a real 3GB/s (maybe 6GB/s) SATA bus. > > > and a decent network card, > > Broadcom Corporation NetXtreme BCM5723 Gigabit Ethernet PCIe (rev 10) > > > Awful big, tho, in an era where I can get 1/2TB on an 2.5 inch SSD. > > I see it as a centralised private cloud server with up to 12TB of RAID1 > that is all-round useful enough to be just about anything, even a primary > workstation in a pinch with Radeon HD4200 VGA out. > > Hereabouts (AU) they are very popular so I was kind of hoping that maybe > the N40L (at ~$200) could be the basis of an "official" 64 bit version > of CeroWrt based on the UML target. > Well, that sort of begs the question of why go through all the pain of porting openwrt to an x86 product, when you can just install ubuntu/fedora/any of a zillion other products on x86. About the only compelling argument I can make for openwrt on x86 is the gui interfaces and the 'light on flash' argument. The first makes it theoretically easier for someone familiar with openwrt to configure an x86 based version. The second is increasingly without point. If you have compelling arguments for a high end x86 box for a 64 bit cerowrt... go for it! Please note if I could find a decent router box in the sub 120 dollar range on x86 (with wifi, and 4 port switch) I'd dump mips in an instant. I think cero has adequately proved that all these fancy new algorithms CAN run on consumer hardware, already... although it seems as though the next generation of all this consumer hardware puts WAY too much stuff in hardware where we can't fix it in software. This latter point is my largest concern going forward - trying to find/make/use hardware that can be debloated. At the moment I think however we're talking about two different things. 1) I was trying to spec a box (specifically for the yurtlab, (but others have asked for it, too)) that would let me do stuff like do packet captures at line rate and run mrtg ( http://www.lns.com/papers/mrtg/ ) and that can easily be an x86_64 box like this one... but god, the idea of making it run openwrt when I can boot one up in ubuntu in 15 minutes.... vs 2) finding some sexy hardware that could be found at retail and improved. As for 2, it's really looking grim. The arm folk treat ethernet as an obsolete interface (which it is getting to be in the home!) and hook up one chip via a usb bus, if that. The mips area is in disarray. x86 folk think floating point and heat sinks are important in a router. ppc... ya know, I haven't looked at life in ppc-land in a while.... > > _______________________________________________ > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > --=20 Dave T=E4ht Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt: http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.html --90e6ba1efca0c52c2e04d4e037b8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 10:09 PM, Mark Co= nstable <markc@renta.net> wrote:
On Sun, 3 Feb 2013 10:17:42 AM Dave Taht wrote:
> Well, I see it for 320.

Yes, too much. At $220 it's good value and with a newer model out= now
I expect this price to drop under $200 AUD (inc delivery) during 2013.

> Then you need to add a SSD,

I've got a 4 Bay 2.5" SATA Removable Rack for the CD slot so= I see the
N40L as a catchall for my future hand me down 3.5" and 2.5" SATA = drives
on a real 3GB/s (maybe 6GB/s) SATA bus.

> and a decent network card,

Broadcom Corporation NetXtreme BCM5723 Gigabit Ethernet PCIe (rev 10)=

> Awful big, tho, in an era where I can get 1/2TB on an 2.5 inch SSD.
I see it as a centralised private cloud server with up to 12TB of RAI= D1
that is all-round useful enough to be just about anything, even a primary workstation in a pinch with Radeon HD4200 VGA out.

Hereabouts (AU) they are very popular so I was kind of hoping that maybe the N40L (at ~$200) could be the basis of an "official" 64 bit ve= rsion
of CeroWrt based on the UML target.

Well, that sor= t of begs the question of why go through all the pain of porting openwrt to= an x86 product, when you can just install ubuntu/fedora/any of a zillion o= ther products on x86.

About the only compelling argument I can make for openwrt on x86 is the= gui interfaces and the 'light on flash' argument. The first makes = it theoretically easier for someone familiar with openwrt to configure an x= 86 based version.

The second is increasingly without point.

If you have compellin= g arguments for a high end x86 box for a 64 bit cerowrt... go for it!
Please note if I could find a decent router box in the sub 120 dollar ran= ge on x86 (with wifi, and 4 port switch) I'd dump mips in an instant. I= think cero has adequately proved that all these fancy new algorithms CAN r= un on consumer hardware, already... although it seems as though the next ge= neration of all this consumer hardware puts WAY too much stuff in hardware = where we can't fix it in software. This latter point is my largest conc= ern going forward - trying to find/make/use hardware that can be debloated.=

At the moment I think however we're talking about two different thi= ngs.

1) I was trying to spec a box (specifically for the yurtlab, (= but others have asked for it, too)) that would let me do stuff like do pack= et captures at line rate and run mrtg=A0 ( http://www.lns.com/papers/mrtg/ ) and that can easily be an= x86_64 box like this one... but god, the idea of making it run openwrt whe= n I can boot one up in ubuntu in 15 minutes....


vs

2) finding some sexy hardware that could be found at reta= il and improved.

As for 2, it's really looking grim. The arm fol= k treat ethernet as an obsolete interface (which it is getting to be in the= home!) and hook up one chip via a usb bus, if that. The mips area is in di= sarray. x86 folk think floating point and heat sinks are important in a rou= ter. ppc... ya know, I haven't looked at life in ppc-land in a while...= .

=A0

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Cerowrt-devel@lists.= bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel



--
Dave T=E4ht=

Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt: http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/= subscribe.html=20 --90e6ba1efca0c52c2e04d4e037b8--