From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-io1-xd2c.google.com (mail-io1-xd2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 548E23B29D; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 21:22:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2c.google.com with SMTP id d18so7638390iof.13; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 18:22:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=PWRhEJ0VJIdF4n68woiNb11Bh6EIARr7Zm3hWBKuKkc=; b=ZVN8amqrR7hdzh/ETk018B1KSQtYyAActWla6k7yohAp3tBszxjCSA+dQLe9biHndz v7FA+V3n9IeozUMuCZN5Rrz3IB34S9QBNstwSgoGMEgujcPGe0DOED/LJpgCSH5FFNF/ ba8pYBFSsQR8GBjQqnIMigGPR06kHjtrmK9poYaQQkfcEfnPCbX2780jtn/e1Y5hk9zs B6mqAyawCB9zXMW5kQMm9HbamRe5fyiVVmoxaJuRdpT/raqqivn9mzZeTGa/1clfFw/2 DGhVfT7uNNq42sEl+QnAz4WbEv99WtyUNmCMGExcUBBpizT40uQ5Z098PhR8EWzUaB7M 5tPQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PWRhEJ0VJIdF4n68woiNb11Bh6EIARr7Zm3hWBKuKkc=; b=fXHh6qAg8jZvrcXYn1D6r3G/Wanro6WbunWyEoxbfM9JCYYdxHhw3WbslIjyyaGxQO QcaFiXsMyUFBpbnvLiIbHQuPvuwhbrFPP8uUsT3KfXUSjiWbflkz25LdqM/9x3q/xydc 9MyLgx4NVy33kG026sdbi6s4xm4gIv9V+ojHFF70qj2PBmgdzkBlKKlOQ1yKb1Nt7HFh nrirxO3529TyLjvmwftp6v69rghVuQoj5WMiguoGMCp56JXV/gwrunH9Ev8o8GGDh63/ qRWymRJpV9/wKnL2odQKQomU4Jhg6gZeR6gVXhRaoCaiY0YOPqpXC0YIc+4LSOLOaQOG L0ig== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Tdk+zjvUj6BYzYEhdZRmoqm9EQQNRfxiJNTjSar+tRhkNdzwi YYIl5+Zx9mBgxRQmSrvSvhuzYwu8J/6Di6G5Ov0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxQe15vmNWssbPR1E39im7/xIjKQhM5EWivJstC5Hwctd/EcAP7UcG6WiFve92ITY2Gwi/vv2PpaiH1Bkj+T6k= X-Received: by 2002:a02:6d10:: with SMTP id m16mr17555946jac.60.1632100931581; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 18:22:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1625188609.32718319@apps.rackspace.com> <989de0c1-e06c-cda9-ebe6-1f33df8a4c24@candelatech.com> <1625773080.94974089@apps.rackspace.com> <1625859083.09751240@apps.rackspace.com> In-Reply-To: <1625859083.09751240@apps.rackspace.com> From: Dave Taht Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 18:21:56 -0700 Message-ID: To: "David P. Reed" Cc: Luca Muscariello , Cake List , Make-Wifi-fast , Leonard Kleinrock , Bob McMahon , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net, codel@lists.bufferbloat.net, cerowrt-devel , bloat , Ben Greear Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] Little's Law mea culpa, but not invalidating my main point X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 01:22:12 -0000 I just wanted to comment on how awesome this thread was, and how few people outside this group deeply grok what was discussed here. I would so like to somehow construct an educational TV series explaining "How the Internet really works" to a wider, and new audience, consisting of animations, anecdotes, and interviews with the key figures of its evolution. While I deeply understood Len Kleinrock's work in the period 2011-2015, and tried to pass on analogies and intuition without using the math since, inspired by van jacobson's analogies and Radia Perlman's poetry, it's hard for me now to follow the argument. Queue theory in particular, is not well known or taught anymore, despite its obvious applications to things like the Covid crisis. But that would be just one thing! The end to end argument, the side effects of spitting postscript into a lego robot, what actually happens during a web page load, how a cpu actually works, are all things that are increasingly lost in multiple mental models, and in my mind many could be taught in kindergarden, if we worked at explaining it hard enough.