From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-il1-x131.google.com (mail-il1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB9F73B2A4; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 12:44:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-il1-x131.google.com with SMTP id y15so5801919ilj.11; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 09:44:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3vhI6wDJRd5OpgHM3nJA5Qb+k7ZUOUwIhw09RbAarPw=; b=bnZiasQ00YqNfhI/UU/sqkXGoXPJPP8E+RJ6dY/ejK0hptLu7gYGmkz8RqQdi5bqhe lqGz5e5NhlyKcBrmdS8kcJyeFsJLAuXJbvXIhhULmYcPR8si2Octio+DsJwjgcJ+neij ahBR3HLCxv2SzsfyhJ3fSvmr63PjijvzKGvbKjElu2U7tlZ/zuV+tbG9XZYXdraR8+pQ uC2r0g4/3SrOnUq5nzSbNN3qamENwbLT5ygviNtRdoCkZzzcwKSadKbUHNcwVQGG2CLH uoW7pj1Qcv9Hutl/b5UBaYHnLqlHPrZJyQZCFZzJVfevlM/ggqqXAXWYdpfvccSFmNDI 55Kg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3vhI6wDJRd5OpgHM3nJA5Qb+k7ZUOUwIhw09RbAarPw=; b=iyBDRg7YLFW9koDUAvUMT/4DKLjlo75qApNQzXrPEgKtO+NQQID8B0ABKuDdxyX+Nk /1U8FRcmCxC98NQNFpyJqPdrMwt7o/FGstpu+MNROccyzk6w2Tkp3OT78W1KOgJovlRd RcTFtDB9dcxlJiu1YH2wlL3rPl/iJwNTwmAky3BoDow8ayVroxf65U4ivWlLsTVoXRPD c3kkV0avhrEvFz2Dv3GEXLCclLGC3haxkHNjeAGxZ1hLLQS4lwdX7Z0gQZH7ikhO626L KSLefUelOkrO1G2mRa+y+mWvCfUumoFkwHgq/Z6ZY9J9yLwr0futHAdxV50MVO1MgFfa /NSw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530LTn0oWZUk3JMMFHR4QDqn13nhk4C5A81FyExJZGeWsGiXgQyR DfN+gNoVpMa61hY0bXTWHr8KKWLYIF26JusM+/sLMKUU0WA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxL4liaVdFswFODFY4zjbRHHhr5pUgqw2SYnl+AarVakRYv+ZsV7mbNZuvZIt6uju8vSRuaN92EXWXpmt9gRrU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:2142:: with SMTP id d2mr6610972ilv.249.1613065492322; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 09:44:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1612903504.690718796@apps.rackspace.com> <3C663278-1082-4D81-8BAD-E72B423DB4C0@jonathanfoulkes.com> In-Reply-To: <3C663278-1082-4D81-8BAD-E72B423DB4C0@jonathanfoulkes.com> From: Dave Taht Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 09:44:40 -0800 Message-ID: To: Jonathan Foulkes Cc: "David P. Reed" , cerowrt-devel , bloat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] cringley rants well on bloat X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 17:44:53 -0000 It would of course be very nice to have the budget to do a press release once in a while. But we had to do a bake sale to run the last one. On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 9:12 AM Jonathan Foulkes w= rote: > > Perhaps that is our problem? We are hallucinating and disconnected from r= eality? > > > Don=E2=80=99t think so, I have plenty of data points that prove it exists= on hundreds and hundreds of ISPs, with more added daily. > > And some of the commenters seem to want to insult Jim Gettys, too, by nam= e, saying that he "got it wrong". > > > Yes, that particularly pissed me off. Many of the folks involved in fixin= g this issue are under-recognized. > > Might I suggest some PR, like a press release on major releases of key co= mponents, such as Cake, or when OpenWrt drops a major point release that in= grates new bloat-mitigation features. Since OpenWrt 21.x is about to drop, = the draft should circulate in the coming weeks. > > Cheers, > > Jonathan Foulkes > > On Feb 9, 2021, at 3:45 PM, David P. Reed wrote: > > Hmmm... good post, I guess. But aren't WiFi 6 and StarLink being built by= people who have proved their genius by being billionaires? > > > > It's sad, though, to read through the comments. There's a whole 'nother w= orld out there now. > Apparently the world of commenters are largely convinced bufferbloat does= n't exist, and never did. > > > > Perhaps that is our problem? We are hallucinating and disconnected from r= eality? > > > > I constantly hear that IETF attendees don't believe it is a problem. And = folks like Andy Bechtolsheim get loads of VC money to create Ethernet 10+ G= igE switches that are full of buffers, therefore creating lots of lag under= load in datacenters where they buy this gear because Andy is famous. AndyB= 's company even produce white papers that claim more buffers improves perfo= rmance by keeping all the links running at wirespeed (the hell with latency= ). > > > > And some of the commenters seem to want to insult Jim Gettys, too, by nam= e, saying that he "got it wrong". > > > > I've concluded that COVID-19 reflects a general infection of brains with = some kind of arrogant ignorance, including many of the folks who get boondo= ggles from their company to attend IETF. > > > > But it may be the opposite, after all. Maybe we folks don't understand wh= at is true in this real Bizarro World, and bufferbloat is a hoax like COVID= . Q is probably right, and we are probably all pederasts like Hillary Clint= on. > > > > > > On Monday, February 8, 2021 8:45pm, "Dave Taht" sai= d: > > > https://www.cringely.com/2021/02/04/2021-prediction-4-wifi-6-is-a-bust-= for-now-as-bufferbloat-returns-thanks-to-isp-greed/ > > > > > > -- > > "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public > > relations, for Mother Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman > > > > dave@taht.net CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel: 1-831-435-0729 > > _______________________________________________ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > > > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > > --=20 "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Mother Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman dave@taht.net CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel: 1-831-435-0729