From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oi0-x234.google.com (mail-oi0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9235B3B2F0; Fri, 11 Mar 2016 15:09:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-oi0-x234.google.com with SMTP id r187so93983166oih.3; Fri, 11 Mar 2016 12:09:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-transfer-encoding; bh=kxM8LSf331nejEsEAo+Wa1jxFmgByv5EQreAUR2t6QI=; b=jCN7OdXO2xMxFZVEX2WyA+lRKbl2aZtgaLiJ8RtBaO5R79316/yJm+1SkiTTO6nJf8 w9A892aNKRa7bOm5DxbeEq/7CePq8GIr/7hP8I3ANJH6WufbG8UNTzCP2DGRQ/mTc98d tNtismlIq4kh0mEBUkhMY2G1IgHcDzaiPUurlSa6vDprubaJDTJjiwNhjAAgK63Q76uu fLwseUkcpqeoORNE93VTgB65IHlKayKY8VEBn/HTKQvcbCDEjw2ZrTqYlYfp2qkQ2Rz+ GV5YdsaYfyZZhrKDGQasPpVx7EKoW+3+a0AIj8Wgb4Y+4QkSlVe02C7ij9Xn3QX9ZQFL izpQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-transfer-encoding; bh=kxM8LSf331nejEsEAo+Wa1jxFmgByv5EQreAUR2t6QI=; b=ZowN3vukoZf00dvIjdt6Tfi/YmyvqMozes33FwJa48WQSlXBNSzS0xnQyam0ZfbERA Awjwws2yVJ893SOHNNDQcQTBgPLtuHCv85NZQebK3vTxki1PS6e3lDKi8hWAdr79CgWr kyq8rkUxi2r26X3jNEF4HMk3HKBx8ZLRBhXqGIuzpwVhNhseaXEHzik2dquEkVEyZeFK ldObZf+tKoi52ENLId9BB98z5jHTnik78TbppgAo+v9vifXp25Yts8Snzg2v267Kcnjc 3ohqmklbdlX7pVjBTQsjQ73MpseDhzmEtJK0wbuiWn4SrWvOzJkaAsfxYYJAE7h1lzgQ mfdw== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLGh3U5KNdGq4eQatZSwh5e+aKGPPyvsbciLJ5S+lD+g2yBhw29ZgMfcuv0DmYhfw7P736+PRmsLNMGFg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.75.140 with SMTP id y134mr6588340oia.116.1457726992979; Fri, 11 Mar 2016 12:09:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.202.79.88 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Mar 2016 12:09:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 12:09:52 -0800 Message-ID: From: Dave Taht To: Paul Vixie Cc: Jonathan Morton , make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net, "Luis E. Garcia" , "cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" , bufferbloat-fcc-discuss Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Cerowrt-devel] On building your own routers and the mass market X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 20:09:53 -0000 Changing the topic. I'd like the arstechnica discussion to remain political= .... On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 11:31 AM, Paul Vixie wrote: > Jonathan Morton wrote: >>> On 11 Mar, 2016, at 20:22, Luis E. Garcia wrote: >>> Time to start building our own. >> A big project in itself - but perhaps a worthwhile one. We wouldn=E2=80= =99t >> be able to compete on price against the Taiwanese horde, but price is >> not the only market force on the table. Firmware quality is a bit >> abstract and nebulous to sell to ordinary consumers, but there is one >> thing that might just get their attention. I totally approve of people getting together and building things they think the market needs, or merely what they think they need. Ironically, in 1999, the designs I was shopping around for a "home wireless AP" were designed to plug into where the thermostat was in a house, had a touchscreen (and ran x-windows remotely), and sank without a trace past a VC's glazed eyes over and over again. Then the wrt happened. in 2002... and 15 years later, Nest happened... sigh. The segment of "makers", the essential R&D, ultimately feeds into more polished products, and people should try making those too. There are billions of devices left to be built in the next decade, and plenty of room for innovation, and the best, not necessarily the cheapest, like tp-link - will win - and it's my hope that certain values we have here will propagate into the successful products. We're not particularly good at final products, however. ... I had a nice visit over at eero yesterday. Their CTO greeted me with a flash stick outstretched, containing their (debian-based) code. ;) I was very impressed that they went from kickstarter to a US-wide launch of their product(s), with enough people, and with a business model that makes sense (selling three 2-radio diversity meshed routers at a time to get better coverage (and improve margins)), that they seem to understand the need for remote updates deeply, AND the need to make things simple for ordinary users. They also seem to grok things we are really bad at, like getting finished products on shelves. ... and I'm going to order a couple, 'cause their wifi is not as good as it could be (nobody's is), and he said I could visit periodically with make-wifi-fast's upcoming fixes. https://eero.com/ > the cznic team has already done this. > > https://omnia.turris.cz/en/ I am rooting for them, also, hard! They've made all the right choices technically and it's (aside from the wifi, currently) the best chipset possible from an open source perspective. They - unlike nearly all the home router makers and CPE vendors, have a perspective driven by the problems they've seen by being a registrar. They have money in the bank, and low costs, and an idealism about open design that seems rooted in the maker movement. I'd love to see this market arduinotized. It would be my hope, that with another year's worth of software development that their design would be suitable for more mass market CPE, particularly to ISPs in the fiber space. (And that they will be essentially first to have better wifi as I plan to get stuff working on that board as soon as I get one in my hot little hands). A huge percentage of the former "home router" market is going away as more and more ISPs bundle the router/wifi and other options into a single device. That concerns me a lot, and the only thing I can think of worth doing there is to join this org: http://rdkcentral.com/ and encourage others to also do so. Still, there has to be a lower cost option (for which I'm mostly chasing mediatek, and sad to have had to have dropped both netgear and tp-link from further consideration). - but who knows - with serious volumes, on a standardized platform that gets 100ks of deployments by ISPs, manufactured for the long term, the omnia's costs could drop significantly enough to be competitive with cheap crap, or, as in the raspberry pi market, a whole new segment using more standardized firmware will emerge. I'd really like to see more devices interoperate in the IoT, as well, things like making mdns scale better, ipv6 work with naming more right, etc - perhaps this new wave of folk entering the market - and others exiting - might actually be able to pull more of the pieces together. > > -- > P Vixie > _______________________________________________ > bufferbloat-fcc-discuss mailing list > bufferbloat-fcc-discuss@lists.redbarn.org > http://lists.redbarn.org/mailman/listinfo/bufferbloat-fcc-discuss