From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wr1-x433.google.com (mail-wr1-x433.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::433]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0DF9C3B2A4 for ; Thu, 11 Aug 2022 10:24:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x433.google.com with SMTP id j7so21572422wrh.3 for ; Thu, 11 Aug 2022 07:24:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc; bh=wC8qHhj3oVIZwWLtz2hkuNKP0gssAch3drDth4HFFgM=; b=UKzEXL/5fLLd+lho8mQvFph7voMjkCQD9el/TPC410iXfdMZP2Hr6lShcoykhixD8M 7zktkK7slwDNipOqlUdHr7ELKl4csAaa2TE3TfIuazHDJ9/0gY5yLEQ8RT/WrEOvSdc1 BT9dE+ytFRoWIibcVrg6zMFIhCjG+IMdk9p0pZoIxDsinnRf+RYGTAdKFUS9ChWRFM6j MwPoG4z7L/2jk/fqve36Y3GpyUUVEcpEY16H3zel/8OP8TcPxcObvCL9krNAaLP++Bl3 buBtdaelklsxiRUdMfeGulq8vJHaPBXJuho/OKzLsB/3jP7hgV4x+sugIhOjE4nN8jwv qBOw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc; bh=wC8qHhj3oVIZwWLtz2hkuNKP0gssAch3drDth4HFFgM=; b=vT5uoM0E+kGJSHQ8mrZ0BTaT72dR1M78IEx1ntTicFQ6ebgwPp8loQivAuRhALToe6 hnPLY3z2ucczspDtgU0PwdDAy0EE5FWGaCyYLiTUIe6dObsiLu84LtAYoD1XfeB/1yim FjS7ntihZr+OPTxspe0hryOTrPbLZtMYB8GhDnttpf+njmsfPEa0v99RvojVxxs3l4OV hwdoexO3LdE5AyN0JCPUXU3sAVHoD4qDn9ayNcLbK1Lbsg2bBwAD3NjgdtUmAb/O0bRf FgguT7aiJR2GbhDiUh/O9BR3XVixB1VECCWEfGVp3v/PpJOvBcQHFKipctkcx+DQPFFz 1qFg== X-Gm-Message-State: ACgBeo1LpGfhTYzxolDVaiS76zvEzwESYd5i5ZN967gbDIUipz4YdRkE +trwu3hcfHI/s3BgxbGOdubz1DP8Dx6pP6UyWeA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA6agR5QnzYX9vPMlFNkGZEuUIF+0zNTXiVSdENzXtZ1vc0LtJcKJQ51gU/5LJYCNprL6jyKRdQrwDrPUNExCdSXn44= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:1a4e:b0:220:5e43:9843 with SMTP id t14-20020a0560001a4e00b002205e439843mr19533282wry.566.1660227896288; Thu, 11 Aug 2022 07:24:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <208621e3-6bb3-a350-2002-98d4a85de110@gmail.com> <34DC74B6-731E-4AB0-8FF6-DC776EF888D2@redfish-solutions.com> In-Reply-To: <34DC74B6-731E-4AB0-8FF6-DC776EF888D2@redfish-solutions.com> From: Dave Taht Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2022 07:24:44 -0700 Message-ID: To: Philip Prindeville Cc: Florian Fainelli , OpenWrt Development List , cerowrt-devel Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] Reaching out to Greg KH for 6 year LTS kernel versions X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2022 14:24:58 -0000 I am not on the openwrt-devel list from this acct... I tried to resubscribe but its taking too long... On Wed, Aug 10, 2022 at 1:29 PM Philip Prindeville wrote: > > Not to play the devil's advocate but... do we want old kernels hanging ou= t that long? People are still shipping 3.3 kernels. > Besides not encouraging people to update to new releases that mitigate di= scovered CVE's, we'd also not pick up David Taht's excellent improvements i= n Buffer Bloat. People keep giving me too much credit. There have been dozens of core contributors to this effort, 1000s of others, and we have billions of machines (not enough routers, tho!) now doing more of the right things. I haven't made a technical contribution in years. I( got a couple new things that I'd like to work on, but no funding). What was once a 5-7 lag in embedded from devel to distribution now seems closer to 10. I've gone political in search of finding ways to get bufferbloat fixes out there. Somehow convincing the world that in addition to burning billions on fiber buildouts ISPs should be supplying better routers has been a big goal, and I'm low on ideas on how to move forward on that. Certainly finding some way to get openwrt shippers like starlink to at least plan to upgrade to a modern openwrt rather than continue to ship LEDE is very desirable... 6 year old kernels at FCS.... noo... I thought ooka's new speedtest (which measures responsiveness on up/downloads now) would provide a tipping point. Certainly also preseem and libreqos are making an impact in the smaller ISP markets... In the last 6 months of coping with a string of regressions in openwrt's wifi[1], I've reflected on the waddington effect a lot. If you haven't heard of it, it applies a string of criteria to how and why you o prevenntative maintenence on airplanes: https://resources.savvyaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/articles_eaa/EAA_201= 1-03_the-waddington-effect.pdf As for 6 years on a LTS kernel, my instinct is NOOOOO! Progress MUST be made! We must keep working towards making kernel upgrades continuous and easy. But think deeply on the waddington effect. The cold and bitter reality though is if someone is willing to pay someone(s) to maintain a kernel for that long, and it keeps up with major security issues, it's no skin off our backs. I would prefer cash be injected into better review ( there are 1500 open issues and 300+ outstanding https://github.com/openwrt/openwrt/pulls right now), we found ways to attract, train, and retain good developers in "the FOSS way", and more companies and governments using openwrt found ways to support those, and "sufficiently rapid" change in the ever more fossilized FOSS ecosystem. [1] https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:696333731259636940= 8/ > > > On Aug 8, 2022, at 5:15 PM, Florian Fainelli wro= te: > > > > Hi, > > > > Greg KH has communicated a few times before on his blog [1] that he is = seeking the help of individuals and company to help him maintain the LTS ke= rnels and allow them to be made 6 years instead of just the usual 2 years. > > > > 5.10 is a 6 year LTS, but 5.15 is not listed as such, although it certa= inly would make sense for it to be since we use 5.15 in OpenWrt. > > > > It would be good for the project to have a designated contact who can c= ommunicate the kernel version plan ahead of time, or once a LTS is picked u= p, we could sign up people to do regular testing of the stable release cand= idates? > > > > Thoughts? > > > > [1]: http://kroah.com/log/blog/2021/02/03/helping-out-with-lts-kernel-r= eleases/ > > -- > > Florian > > > > _______________________________________________ > > openwrt-devel mailing list > > openwrt-devel@lists.openwrt.org > > https://lists.openwrt.org/mailman/listinfo/openwrt-devel > -- FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_code= l/ Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC