From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-io1-xd41.google.com (mail-io1-xd41.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C52073B29D for ; Sat, 9 May 2020 10:48:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd41.google.com with SMTP id d7so4815037ioq.5 for ; Sat, 09 May 2020 07:48:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=FXY471MPRtfnwuYKaNKbFIs7+TcYpVzRk5r6N1ankww=; b=YnJMiFslBtekls7l5umPhs3skQqzdMg6Wg4MOk1PQD/Zt3vvYKhbQ+ptMk/FGnaxU8 L16WOtW5nXkjaaBcw9o378LWwW6bIr7f8NdmvVwEWzIU2HxKaT5MX6wcA7nhFDQFZNcT Y2UXSMAqxsvm1m9CgGO2PJcE01TvGBPFizxXvcJkR7p75lfdK+1K0ZevoKCXsvngp5Yn uZct40RDIZNnMpE6hvfmlTm0Z0kc+7M335W1FCOsIr19zq0Sx8J0b/FMufs5CroeQwF7 nW0bgC1NLompBycDIfSTYdu4dMCimgIpgv/05DcrKKR9Xv/jdTkMbnGhMltP+kQjc2tt 8BWA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=FXY471MPRtfnwuYKaNKbFIs7+TcYpVzRk5r6N1ankww=; b=MLaVhgl8XqtK3ui9HvReOP19enoKC6t+xkZoEhyd57sUV6DzTWGKxsckFXaFWztgar zL766Sk1YhPXk4WFXz8nkyZGHz4vYW0FcB/42/r2+L3OpTJXQithvVrGuHO7qEmv8MP8 dI5ADunpDPz25DLZBACZqNt4iIV2Av7VlqWws/JNSBvxPz5AERNHEshqdhpfpPJSl2Ij OJs8evO3UiHBj7g3/yeMouQ6iQ4io+NHCoajbjJjQ5RvSZO58zmWGD7zvX0H5jcH7f+q kaAvG0Hx0P/dUa/RIlYHD1L7jyZbWUHySbQtWJxGAPI9BI2Mi0VPEzLT+6waPq9nIf7l /Dtw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaFpZ8NaCmz0jL3sP9GcLN91aWu1mQcl3vVsLHEbrSkMqdj47nr L0N0hlMOWR4eTMT0RwATpa5dhGWOYoqFZsrCZG8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIYsc7ruiTLupcsaPysugah4q/+EJSWN4/tDtZsDXslDxu7YR7WeaYIiwnz2H+nU/HvGsYuROd+CNs6SPFPeuE= X-Received: by 2002:a02:a90e:: with SMTP id n14mr7377517jam.97.1589035692196; Sat, 09 May 2020 07:48:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4b9b07f44a3c9768397a9cb9f.1837415047.20200508232432.d498099fb3.60c67bfc@mail228.suw16.rsgsv.net> <6627.1589009682@turing-police> In-Reply-To: <6627.1589009682@turing-police> From: Dave Taht Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 07:48:00 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Valdis_Kl=C4=93tnieks?= Cc: cerowrt-devel Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_You=27re_Invited=3A_DWeb_Virtual?= =?utf-8?q?_Meetup_14next_Wednesday--Decentralized_Storage_=C3=983D?= =?utf-8?b?w5xCRSDDmDNEw5xCQg==?= X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 May 2020 14:48:12 -0000 On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 12:34 AM Valdis Kl=C4=93tnieks wrote: > > On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:40:20 -0700, Dave Taht said: > > > while I'm referring to stuff that's actually fun and off-topic... I've = long > > off been watching progress in this area, knowing that > > "fixing bufferbloat" is a key requirement for technologies like this to > > succeed. > > Amen to that. Probably around a decade ago, $DAYJOB at the time was appr= oached > by a vendor who had a very compelling and cost-effective erasure-coded st= orage > product that would have allowed us to have the data at 3 sites, and total= loss > of any one would be survivable. Two sites were about 3 cable miles apart= , and > the third was 95 cable miles and could only run at 10Gig speed back then. > > And what sank the deal was uncertainty if we could meet throughput requir= ements > under heavy load with one site that distant. (You'd be *amazed* what hap= pens > in the first 3 minutes after semester add/drop goes live at midnight, whe= n you > have 35,000 students. :) > > The other great bugaboo - How do you back up a half billion files that to= tal > 12+ petabytes? (It doesn't help the solution space when the majority of i= t is > one research group that (a) will probably eventually data-mine their data= for > $100M+ in research grants and also (b) the terms of some of the grants > specified a 30 year retention on the data *and* some wicked nasty PII is= sues, > because the data includes identifiable video of people who had not consen= ted to > be part of the research study... Well, someone(s) are probably doing that with government money anyway. > Storage - it turns out you can't just throw 10 terabyte drives at the pro= blem. :) I still rather like bittorrrent. I've come to understand, over the years, why it got structured the way it did. The typical behavior of having 5 open streams and switching between them every 15 seconds or so is a direct outgrowth of bufferbloat, compensating for slow start in an overbuffered universe, and maxing out at 100ms observed induced delay, even with the latecomer problem, works as best as it can. the further, more recent adopion of vpns for it add intrinsic delay, and that also makes the impact of the protocol on edge networks less. It's not quite a dead protocol, and the implementations could still be better of course, But in no case can I come up with some way to keep file integrity for 10PB with even thousands of volunteer users providing chunks of storage. Hard problem! That said, thousands of nodes providing resiliency for the semester end/drop - far worse than mothers day - problem - does makes sense. the whole covid-19 thing - trying to match available hospital resources against the potential growth in infection rate - is bufferbloat in the real world - covidbloat - and I wish more folk understood that the queue theory problems are the same. --=20 Make Music, Not War Dave T=C3=A4ht CTO, TekLibre, LLC http://www.teklibre.com Tel: 1-831-435-0729