From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qk0-x22d.google.com (mail-qk0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 73E9D3B2A4; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 17:14:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id d130-v6so10245470qkc.2; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 14:14:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=37znkOOcbaqBPRBeOtfuvM7/4PR7R7pLNDkkgBROeag=; b=khftmAbdQRe0BnSXIpXCvvm/XCNqpF2UrlSoX5a9hXK5RxOHtzoNQxl0iYAVnszJB8 YmCuzOyi45qOgpeGmfsk5fmHg1QOgHrvjvE4bVx7d7xGFnGb93FRrJ1X4/GyfoOm4KdL yLn2zHTZkr3TzRxmq2/1dvJ8F8e96cnpnMa+VoXwbTfXiK0BAcz8vH38GqSyVia+FLae lkQQiX9oN2AIJiqZS1W3dFylEo0dHcE2IG8c5kyDoh9xh1eovYhMD4OXXfdfR1fkcaeA 1pEAYKVV6Z/sb/S7G/FN29mVS9VG5ok4z1yJihofeOtaMyzdLC7zTc3h964WjnJzhk0F kI3g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=37znkOOcbaqBPRBeOtfuvM7/4PR7R7pLNDkkgBROeag=; b=MnfPQy9sUpjEGFmGwO8hosr+Vn/In7wefJwW7zfmhGzF+qEIg+8uh6gg8aLSajIbJH pvdO/abOv2qNPfclneSiXvmBt3fD1BXT+DBb9jBBzcWSGtLh0Uhakg0BbeYlP6BYLZq3 OTKNXQEYiU2b98YPbbrtVY5b9uWiR2kB+ZWuGal2vDi50N0aAmMoNQbjOSm6JgpqPe8g Yh3JjF4CBHxSU6ezbqdqztSq9hK4AOKMb1St+2Ytkw4eS4SvRGvE/9lh6vhUyFWqudQI GZNrCLz3isdhraVlRYd3ydIQIBuwh+LewodIB/9rVopKBUjfuDNVT0rp+QWpEIs0Sigj iSug== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E1jKdhOM8QuJhImnIgjxyXNAQjVT0sFo0Vthc8ZF3eZmv1DC79D LUaEJFLDnx4sWpH8gM+UrzmPqHfAJTQj4mcxv63eMw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKJkodGZtI91o6j6f2/x1AsXWo9dHhKUcfJFDAJFvwlDHmoKd7w7pFh4Rpo0nUquE2qh0mngiCBa2LDInpiqUSc= X-Received: by 2002:a37:129d:: with SMTP id 29-v6mr11536650qks.263.1529356461991; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 14:14:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:aed:24f0:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 14:14:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <978.1529355565@localhost> References: <1529339194.276412941@apps.rackspace.com> <978.1529355565@localhost> From: Dave Taht Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 14:14:21 -0700 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: "dpreed@deepplum.com" , cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net, bloat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] Invisibility of bufferbloat and its remedies X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 21:14:22 -0000 >From a ton of memes at: https://me.me/t/buffering "Dear youtube: I can deal with ads I can deal with buffer But when ads buffer, I suffer" and innumerable others, some NSFW https://me.me/i/16133421 On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 1:59 PM, Michael Richardson wrot= e: > > dpreed@deepplum.com wrote: > > I blame IETF members, individually and collectively. If ietf exists= for > > any reason other than as a boondoggle for world travel, it's for > > resolving issues like this one. > > Slightly fair. > > A thing that I tried to get ISOC's "deploy360" to do was to create a wall= of > shame on bufferbloat five or eight years ago. It was before the AQM WG d= id > any work, I think. I wanted ISOC to collect the data, because I wanted i= t > visible at the CTO level. > > At the very very least, I wanted a series of curated links to statements = from > various equipment vendors about the problem. > I.e. www.example.com/bufferbloat.html for example in > {cisco,juniper,huawei,calix,...} > > I asked many of my IETF contacts at these places if they knew who at thei= r > company was dealing with it. I also asked salespeople that I dealt with, > hoping to put pressure the other way. I got nowhere. > > I wanted, at the very least, to get them to acknowledge that there was a > problem, even if they didn't have an estimate on a solution, at least I c= ould > point the salesperson at the page on their site, and say, "I'll buy when = you > get me a delivery date". > A major client of mine lost three large (VoIP) customers because of hidde= n > bufferbloat in Bell Canada's LAN extension service... which "never lost a= ny > packets", the sales people explained. It was at a time when we > weren't quite using the term bufferbloat, and we didn't quite know how to > measure it in convincing ways. > > I still think that this is a good idea. > > -- > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh netwo= rks [ > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network archite= ct [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails= [ > > --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC http://www.teklibre.com Tel: 1-669-226-2619