From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oa0-x231.google.com (mail-oa0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c02::231]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2381621F358; Fri, 27 Jun 2014 21:58:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oa0-f49.google.com with SMTP id i7so6562074oag.36 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2014 21:58:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=s7fMDddV7HqykffL6ibyn3lyDf1iuIIrpUHQX40DRv0=; b=QhTkQycdhAQdA9ad+MqjA2yGZ0XyqHP+AuoSrhZ3wzseS7gZD7Z+MSoQgVjSdj7B6g 1ZUQtvA8xlukNFstdgedlf8QOzCnWUnFRA04H9UE2w3NM2D/3Q660g74D85uWqzBvKtv QH6F+hwDwIr6W679QCkxb73ASu+5Fw50L2fQCA5+XpZaWY2Ei+R2+1bOpQQFpQqkHPA/ imsy/xCRcOMrLsg68XpRmp3QyWEGY/YmhoP2eJW9uyUPSTpc3M+DRj7GGmifx9Grfv3t BnrQj/oh5GcepI8N8VgIDXrJ96XnRgBlkTMxgb63fZfhFoKtkgeMrptfCIxquJFvod43 IZCg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.5.65 with SMTP id q1mr92375obq.74.1403931519312; Fri, 27 Jun 2014 21:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.48.200 with HTTP; Fri, 27 Jun 2014 21:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 21:58:39 -0700 Message-ID: From: Dave Taht To: "David P. Reed" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: cerowrt-devel , bloat Subject: [Cerowrt-devel] viability of the data center in the internet of the future X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2014 04:58:40 -0000 I didn't care for my name in the subject line in the first place, although it did inspire me to do some creative venting elsewhere, and now here. And this is still way off topic for the bloat list... One of the points in the wired article that kicked this thread off was this picture of what the internet is starting to look like: http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/net_neutral.jpg.jpeg I don't want it to look like that. I worked pretty hard to defuse the "fast vs slow" lane debate re peering because it was so inaccurate, and it does look like it has died down somewhat, but that doesn't mean I like the concentration of services that is going on. I want the "backbone" to extend all the way to the edge. I want the edge to be all connected together, so in the unlikely event comcast goes out of business tomorrow, I can get re-routed 1 hop out from my house through verizon, or joe's mom and pop fiber shop, or wherever. I want a network that can survive multiple backhoe events, katrinas, and nuclear wars, all at the same time. I'd like to be able to get my own email, and do my own phone and videoconferencing calls with nobody in the middle, not even for call setup, and be able to host my own my own services on my own hardware, with some level of hope that anything secret or proprietary stays within my premise. I want a static ip address range, and control over my own dns. I don't mind at all sharing some storage for the inevitable advertising if the cdn's co-located inside my business are also caching useful bits of javascript, etc, just so I can save on latency on wiping the resulting cruft from my eyeballs. I want useful applications, running, directly, on my own devices, with a minimum amount of connectivity to the outside world required to run them. I want the 83 items in my netflix queue already downloaded, overnight, so I can pick and choose what to see without ever having a "Buffering" event. I want my own copy of wikipedia, and a search engine that doesn't share everything you are looking for with the universe. I want the legal protections, well established for things inside your home, that are clearly not established in data centers. I'd like it if the software we had was robust, reliable, and secure enough to do that. I'd like it if it were easy to make offsite backups, as well as mirror services with friends and co-authors. And I'd like my servers to run on a couple watts, at most, and not require special heating, or cooling. And I'd like (another) beer and some popcorn. Tonight's movie: https://plus.google.com/u/0/107942175615993706558/posts/VJKvfvKU9pi On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Dave Taht wrote: > On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 9:06 PM, David P. Reed wrote: >> Maybe I am misunderstanding something... it just took my Mac book Pro do= ing >> an rsync to copy a TB of data from a small NAS at work yesterday to get >> about 700 Gb/sec on a GigE office network for hours yesterday. >> >> I had to do that in our Santana Clara office rather than from home outsi= de >> Boston, which is where I work 90% of the time. >> >> That's one little computer and one user... > > On a daily basis, the bufferbloat websites transfer far, far less than gi= gE > > IF the redmine portion of the site wasn't so cpu expensive, I could > use something > other than hefty boxes they are on. Similarly snapon's cpu is mostly > used for builds, the file transfer role could be done by something else > easily. I'd like to switch it over to do that one day. > >> What does my Mac Book Pro draw doing that? 80 Watts? > > I love the "kill-a-watt" products. I use them everywhere. (while I'm > pimping stuff I like, digilogger's power switches are a lifesaver also - > staging boots for devices that draw a lot of power in a tiny lab that > can only draw 350 watts before becoming a fire hazard) > > Your NAS probably ate less than 16 watts, more if you have more than one = drive. > > My nucs draw 18 watts and can transfer at GigE off a flash disk > without raising a sweat. > (at least some of your overhead is in the rsync protocol, which is > overly chatty) > > Several tiny arm boards can all do gigE at line rate, notably stuff built= around > marvell and cavium's chipset(s), and they do it at under 2 watts. Most su= pport > 64GB mini-sd cards (with pretty lousy transfer rates). > > Pretty sure (haven't booted it yet) the parallella (which is smaller > than a drive), > can do it in under a 2 watt, and if it doesn't do gigE now, it'll do > it after I get through > with it - but it lacks a sata port, and usb is only 2.0, so it might > not drive gigE > from a nas perspective. (It kind of bugs me that most of the tiny boards = are in > the altoids form factor, rather than the 2.5 inch drive form factor) > > So I go back to my original point in that, once you have fiber to the bus= iness, > for most purposes in a small business or startup or home - who needs > to co-lo in a data center? > You can have a tiny wart on the wall do most of the job. And that's > today. In another > year or so we'll be over some more tipping points. > > One thing that does bug me is most UPSes are optimized to deliver a large > load over a short time, a UPS capable of driving 5 watts for, say, 3 days= is > kind of rare. > >> On Jun 27, 2014, David Lang wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, 24 Jun 2014, Michael Richardson wrote: >>> >>>> Rick Jones wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps, but where does having gigabit fibre to a business imply the >>>>> business >>>>> has the space, power, and cooling to host all the servers it might >>>>> need/wish >>>>> to have? >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a secondary decision. >>>> Given roof space, solar panels and/or snow-outside, maybe the answer i= s >>>> that >>>> I regularly have 2 our of 3 of those available in a decentralized way. >>> >>> >>> given the amount of processing capacity that you can get today in a >>> pasively >>> cooled system, you can do quite a b it of serving from a small amount o= f >>> space >>> and power. >>> >>> The days when it took rooms of Sun boxes to saturate a Gb line are long >>> gone, >>> you can do that with just a handful of machines. >>> >>> David Lang >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> Cerowrt-devel mailing list >>> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel >> >> >> -- Sent from my Android device with K-@ Mail. Please excuse my brevity. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Bloat mailing list >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >> > > > > -- > Dave T=C3=A4ht > > NSFW: https://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Internet_censorship_bills/russell_029= 6_indecent.article --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht NSFW: https://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Internet_censorship_bills/russell_0296_= indecent.article