From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ed1-x531.google.com (mail-ed1-x531.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::531]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F9963B2A4 for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2022 10:32:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-ed1-x531.google.com with SMTP id u21so45805997edd.5 for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2022 07:32:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Mz4hTqkwYuDVsoZ2o6Jed6wyL9gkUcROlUec2McjYSY=; b=pdUQTFzMmYgx16ftktQ1LV0RVRnDP9/ywYGHe9tmS+DwdI+SidnlXPkvk/axqsaMWP Qjs8wKFt6Fc1ANchnxO6U+N8VyFeTfiOczVVEb2Cb/s9DupZP4rAA5xghiyBTf+9ySIT Ilm3Y+wXvmF2lFjnWMr2hhHd1j9p27o4PH2Kn5CukS2egAzwwYEFkYPPgegbMcotofuA iQFCctlz39kJiyCJhEQMySXlZCyD2oPVrU3dC0aPpg/JV9JgPuucwkieoqQ7yUKHkD4v 9t99M53Ofv5H1A1SecETJWabIyOUXpfDv1/HS6fwUgMqKUiWuCN6vgytKYhOvkTnoAkf QoLw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Mz4hTqkwYuDVsoZ2o6Jed6wyL9gkUcROlUec2McjYSY=; b=nmVWgYo6oULgfycRd1gzFQVJwl6kdfuTAnoHiF7T9q5M52YP2dbe523YrMIRunnBVv TOhBvBNqf+KyLiaCEAnWr6lbglwkdLXTNXu34A9LesleD89gede2nRu5Tcyti05eyaPX Agm+YvHjMGcdWTusso0o1TuT749AggDk7I64WAiUf2X4eTUPyurRiAvJ2LZqBz7it3mv sKrbPdBLLi+9KjY6w7TSth6dEBWeFLo8Czi0vHZl6uJ4HdrI+d0Qp145nU6bwbGiBqgN kTgf0QmrIRMat4AJe2zFOBcr8NVTdnwNs/T2DFr3Kg0GbgvYd6if+i1rT8GAF7eajSoc T5Cg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Yc5rtVJLeOwuSTOg4pDt8ucXj01B/ZXrA48bLjaFL7g7uad8p 9QsOaigjSeud0s+yyWnTZRB1v+MnHgj+v8jP5Gg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyddaVCJg6Bnzn0cuZJbqNWd/aexlbXWBQhhBZgZl8P68tx7KAxEaKUYm0vcaU3lpvx7dYq+oaFVraRektaGzU= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:97ca:: with SMTP id js10mr10668367ejc.645.1642260766706; Sat, 15 Jan 2022 07:32:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6D533A43-C4E9-4D48-BC9B-26630F1E17F5@gmx.de> <4F3A4139-6703-467C-832D-3E27294707CE@gmx.de> <15074B17-393D-4167-AE61-A5980C858811@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 07:32:33 -0800 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Jonas_M=C3=A5rtensson?= Cc: Sebastian Moeller , cerowrt-devel Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] a smart SFP X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 15:32:48 -0000 On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 5:12 AM Jonas M=C3=A5rtensson wrote: > > > Sure, but given that you probably need a few splices along the way and= preferably pluggable connectors at both ends the loss budget is not that l= arge (assuming an ISP does not want to push its luck and allows for stuff l= ike end-users not cleaning the plug diligently before each plugging). > > GPON loss budget is 28 dB and typical insertion losses for 1:32 and 1:64 = splitters are 17 dB and 21 dB. This leaves 11 dB or 7 dB for splices, conne= ctors and fiber losses. I don't think it's common to have end-users cleanin= g and plugging in the fiber, this is done by the ISP technician at installa= tion. > > > Dslreports has no cue what a link is actually using, all it reports wic= h test profile a user selected, and some users like me ignore the names and= simply use/recommend the profile with the desired number of flows. Plus qu= ite a number of dedidedly metallic access technology are marketed with fibe= r somewhere in the name, potentially confusing users into selecting the "wr= ong" profile (think Fiber to the Cabinet for copper DSL or even Hybrid-Fibe= r-Coax for docsis cable)... in short the abels are nice, but I would not re= ad too much inside those. > > I agree with all these points. It may be better to look at ISPs that are = known to only use PON, such as Google Fiber. Here are some recent tests tha= t all show similar and interesting bufferbloat behaviour on the uplink: > > https://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/70320015 This is gfiber. We didn't so far as I remember get fq_codel going on the uplink there (just the wifi) I don't know anybody anymore over there. > https://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/70346586 > https://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/70346578 > > /Jonas > > On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 12:55 PM Sebastian Moeller wrot= e: >> >> Hi Jonas, >> >> >> > On Jan 14, 2022, at 11:44, Jonas M=C3=A5rtensson wrote: >> > >> > Hi, >> > >> > > getting gpon more right has increasingly been on my mind >> > >> > I think more right is to not turn the fiber into a shared medium in th= e first place but since gpon is so popular, improving it seems like a nice = goal. >> > >> > > Nobody in their right mind is going to hook up 128 terminalt to one = OLT port, I hope... >> > >> > Well, sharing one OLT port between many terminals is kind of the (only= ) advantage of PON, although split ratios of 32 or 64 are more typical. But= often it's the loss budget that limits the ratio. >> >> Sure, but given that you probably need a few splices along the w= ay and preferably pluggable connectors at both ends the loss budget is not = that large (assuming an ISP does not want to push its luck and allows for s= tuff like end-users not cleaning the plug diligently before each plugging). >> >> >> > >> > > Fist question might to be "how broken is GPON/XGPON" to start with,= no? >> > >> > Looking at dslreports bufferbloat results for fiber, there are many sa= mples with >250ms latency on the uplink. Unfortunately, this graph doesn't = show results for 500Mbit/s or 1Gbit/s services but it's still interesting t= o look at: >> > >> > https://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/results/bufferbloat?up=3D1 >> >> Dslreports has no cue what a link is actually using, all it repo= rts wich test profile a user selected, and some users like me ignore the na= mes and simply use/recommend the profile with the desired number of flows. = Plus quite a number of dedidedly metallic access technology are marketed wi= th fiber somewhere in the name, potentially confusing users into selecting = the "wrong" profile (think Fiber to the Cabinet for copper DSL or even Hybr= id-Fiber-Coax for docsis cable)... in short the abels are nice, but I would= not read too much inside those. >> >> >> > >> > > this thread https://www.computerbase.de/forum/threads/eigenes-modem= -an-ftth-anschluss-via-sfp-gpon-modul.2061989/ (in German) has some instruc= tions how to get root on one type of SFP ONU... >> > >> > Thanks, that's an interesting thread. "Hacking" SFP ONUs seems like a = popular hobby. Here are some other resources I found: >> > >> > https://github.com/zry98/SFP-GPON-ONU >> > https://github.com/hwti/G-010S-A >> > https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D116364&start=3D300#p77196= 1 >> >> Thanks for the links! >> >> Regards >> Sebastian >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > so pulling a testbed together of some sort would be cool, and for t= hat matter, having a SFP that could go right into a SFP enabled home router= rather than a separate unit seems like a good idea, also >> > >> > Yes, but ideally I guess you would also need some control of the OLT s= ide. You may want to look into the VOLTHA project run by ONF: >> > >> > https://wiki.opennetworking.org/display/COM/VOLTHA >> > >> > /Jonas >> > >> > On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 5:29 PM Sebastian Moeller wr= ote: >> > Hi Dave, >> > >> > >> > >> > > On Jan 13, 2022, at 16:59, Dave Taht wrote: >> > > >> > > On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 7:57 AM Sebastian Moeller = wrote: >> > >> >> > >> Hi Dave, >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> this thread https://www.computerbase.de/forum/threads/eigenes-modem= -an-ftth-anschluss-via-sfp-gpon-modul.2061989/ (in German) has some instruc= tions how to get root on one type of SFP ONU... (I was monitoring that thre= ad for general interest, turns out the intel falcon plattform seems somehow= based on an ancient OpenWrt) >> > >> >> > >> Regards >> > >> Sebastian >> > > >> > > It's really remarkable how many places are running an ancient openwr= t. >> > > Starlink's use was not an abomination, but a persistent reality. Giv= en >> > > how much >> > > chaos calmer I've found, I sometimes wish we'd somehow started the >> > > cerowrt project 2 years earlier. >> > >> > Yes and no. >> > >> > > Then we'd be done by now. >> > >> > Hopefully, but then I would not have noticed the whole thing a= nd would probably not have participated... ;) >> > >> > Regards >> > Sebastian >> > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> >> > >>> On Jan 13, 2022, at 15:38, Dave Taht wrote: >> > >>> >> > >>> And a gpon onu >> > >>> >> > >>> https://www.fs.com/products/133619.html >> > >>> >> > >>> On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 6:23 AM Sebastian Moeller wrote: >> > >>>> >> > >>>> That is similar to what happens in some GPON-ONT SFPs, some run a= full small Linux distribution like OpenWrt inside.... though for ethernet = that is unexpected. >> > >>>> This is also similar to SFP VDSL "modems" which likely run their = own embedded OS as well inside the SFP package (at a time there was even a = PCI VDSL2 "modem" that was actually running its own embedded system on the = PCI board, IIRC, it pretended to the main computer to be an ethernet NIC). >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Regards >> > >>>> Sebastian >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>>> On Jan 13, 2022, at 15:18, Dave Taht wrote= : >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> running linux, of course. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> https://blog.benjojo.co.uk/post/smart-sfp-linux-inside >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> -- >> > >>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: >> > >>>>> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.or= g >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> > >>>>> Cerowrt-devel mailing list >> > >>>>> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net >> > >>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel >> > >>>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> -- >> > >>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: >> > >>> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org >> > >>> >> > >>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> > >> >> > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > I tried to build a better future, a few times: >> > > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org >> > > >> > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Cerowrt-devel mailing list >> > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel >> --=20 I tried to build a better future, a few times: https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC