[Cerowrt-devel] USB3 or HDMI ethernet? - Are wires dead?

[Cerowrt-devel] USB3 or HDMI ethernet? - Are wires dead?

[Dave Taht]

I wanted to be able to do wifi aircaps at scale,  So I figured I'd
load up a nuc with a bunch of usb wifi sticks. I got a w(hole bunch of
those - the horrors! the horrors that the drivers revealed...

then I ran across the compute stick phenomenon,

Holy cow, 59 dollars for an entire computer - with wifi on board.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/meet-mele-pcg02u-a-fanless-intel-bay-trail-pc-stick-running-ubuntu-14-t04-lts-503064.shtml?utm_content=bufferb3dfe&utm_medium=social&utm_source=plus.google.com&utm_campaign=buffer

The funny thing is that I didn't want to transfer the caps across the air...
I figured I could set up usb *networking*  on one of these, and it's
certainly fast enough to capture the air and drive tests. There are a
couple older models out there in the same price range...

http://www.amazon.com/Intel-Compute-STCK1A8LFC-Z3735F-Ubuntu/dp/B00W7KAABK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1460990238&sr=8-1&keywords=ubuntu+compute+stick

and newer ones do 802.11ac.

But it asks a question - if basic wifi-only + compute has fallen so
low, is ethernet dead? Every TV I've seen has both ethernet and wifi,
I have no idea what percentage of real users are setting up ethernet
vs wifi on them. (anyone?)

What I sort of hope for is that your TV could become part of the
routing infrastructure in the house - *wired* - so you could attach
more devices to it that wouldn't need their own connections...

Can hdmi actually be used as part of a routing architecture? Could
USB3?  How far along is MOCA these days... You'd plug your compute
stick or handheld into the tv and boom, be online...

anyone know of a hackable modern tv? I - like many others - am really
temped by the 50 inch UHD tvs you can get now - to use as a monitor.
But although many tvs have a ton of open source components, I don't
know of any I can compile a new kernel for, or run babeld on.


-- 
Dave Täht
Save BoatyMcBoatFace from extinction by humorless science ministers!
https://twitter.com/hashtag/boatymcboatface

Re: [Cerowrt-devel] USB3 or HDMI ethernet? - Are wires dead?

[Michael Richardson]

Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
    > But it asks a question - if basic wifi-only + compute has fallen so
    > low, is ethernet dead? Every TV I've seen has both ethernet and wifi, I
    > have no idea what percentage of real users are setting up ethernet vs
    > wifi on them. (anyone?)

Ethernet is not dead for the reasons that wifi is bloated.
I know when my neighbours are watching their wifi "FIBE TV", because my wifi
tends to die.  (I think they do 802.11g without backoff to 802.11b)
*My* "TV" (Wii, OUYA) are on wires for this reason.

I consider jamming their AP... I suspect that apartment dwellers will begin
to learn to use the wire.

    > What I sort of hope for is that your TV could become part of the
    > routing infrastructure in the house - *wired* - so you could attach
    > more devices to it that wouldn't need their own connections...

I agree, it would be nice: the TV is big enough to put a pretty decent
antenna inside, and it's in the place where the people and devices are.

I personally didn't understand why TiVo didn't buy Skype ten years ago. TiVo
had simultaneous MP4 encode and decode and network; all it needed was a USB
camera on top of the TV, and it's a video phone.

--
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh networks [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network architect  [
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails    [

Re: [Cerowrt-devel] USB3 or HDMI ethernet? - Are wires dead?

[Luis E. Garcia]

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I agree with Michael - wired Ethernet is very stable  compared with
Wireless.
In crowed places where everyone has a WiFi router - the WiFi will
experience random drops.
There is the inconvenient of cabling the place up - but the stability is
very much worth it - but I've using PowerLine adapters to ease my way
through for a couple of years now and they've always proven more reliable
than WiFi - but they do tend to have a bandwidth cap.

Luis
Let´s agree to disagree.

On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 9:08 AM, Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>
wrote:

> Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>     > But it asks a question - if basic wifi-only + compute has fallen so
>     > low, is ethernet dead? Every TV I've seen has both ethernet and
> wifi, I
>     > have no idea what percentage of real users are setting up ethernet vs
>     > wifi on them. (anyone?)
>
> Ethernet is not dead for the reasons that wifi is bloated.
> I know when my neighbours are watching their wifi "FIBE TV", because my
> wifi
> tends to die.  (I think they do 802.11g without backoff to 802.11b)
> *My* "TV" (Wii, OUYA) are on wires for this reason.
>
> I consider jamming their AP... I suspect that apartment dwellers will begin
> to learn to use the wire.
>
>     > What I sort of hope for is that your TV could become part of the
>     > routing infrastructure in the house - *wired* - so you could attach
>     > more devices to it that wouldn't need their own connections...
>
> I agree, it would be nice: the TV is big enough to put a pretty decent
> antenna inside, and it's in the place where the people and devices are.
>
> I personally didn't understand why TiVo didn't buy Skype ten years ago.
> TiVo
> had simultaneous MP4 encode and decode and network; all it needed was a USB
> camera on top of the TV, and it's a video phone.
>
> --
> ]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh
> networks [
> ]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network
> architect  [
> ]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on
> rails    [
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
>

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Re: [Cerowrt-devel] USB3 or HDMI ethernet? - Are wires dead?

[Dave Taht]

On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 9:14 AM, Luis E. Garcia <luis@bitamins.net> wrote:
> I agree with Michael - wired Ethernet is very stable  compared with
> Wireless.
> In crowed places where everyone has a WiFi router - the WiFi will experience
> random drops.

Yes, but we are all geeks here. Has J.Random User internalized that
wifi can really suck for TV usage?

> There is the inconvenient of cabling the place up - but the stability is
> very much worth it - but I've using PowerLine adapters to ease my way
> through for a couple of years now and they've always proven more reliable
> than WiFi - but they do tend to have a bandwidth cap.

I have also used powerline adaptors in the apt, while bloated and slow
(200/4mbit is what I get out of mine on the rrul test) - they only
exhibit 90ms delay under load. I wish there was a way to get into
these to get fq_codel in there, they are conceptually a lot simpler
than wifi... but I am only aware of one open source driver for one
chipset, and otherwise these little boxes are a mystery.


> Luis
> Let´s agree to disagree.
>
> On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 9:08 AM, Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>
> wrote:
>>
>> Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>>     > But it asks a question - if basic wifi-only + compute has fallen so
>>     > low, is ethernet dead? Every TV I've seen has both ethernet and
>> wifi, I
>>     > have no idea what percentage of real users are setting up ethernet
>> vs
>>     > wifi on them. (anyone?)
>>
>> Ethernet is not dead for the reasons that wifi is bloated.
>> I know when my neighbours are watching their wifi "FIBE TV", because my
>> wifi
>> tends to die.  (I think they do 802.11g without backoff to 802.11b)
>> *My* "TV" (Wii, OUYA) are on wires for this reason.
>>
>> I consider jamming their AP... I suspect that apartment dwellers will
>> begin
>> to learn to use the wire.
>>
>>     > What I sort of hope for is that your TV could become part of the
>>     > routing infrastructure in the house - *wired* - so you could attach
>>     > more devices to it that wouldn't need their own connections...
>>
>> I agree, it would be nice: the TV is big enough to put a pretty decent
>> antenna inside, and it's in the place where the people and devices are.
>>
>> I personally didn't understand why TiVo didn't buy Skype ten years ago.
>> TiVo
>> had simultaneous MP4 encode and decode and network; all it needed was a
>> USB
>> camera on top of the TV, and it's a video phone.
>>
>> --
>> ]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh
>> networks [
>> ]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network
>> architect  [
>> ]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails
>> [
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
>> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
>



-- 
Dave Täht
Let's go make home routers and wifi faster! With better software!
http://blog.cerowrt.org

Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] USB3 or HDMI ethernet? - Are wires dead?

[Jonathan Morton]

> On 18 Apr, 2016, at 17:50, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> But it asks a question - if basic wifi-only + compute has fallen so low, is ethernet dead?

Among the serious PC gaming community, it’s widely recognised that wired links (both LAN and WAN) have much lower latency and packet loss than wireless ones.  In competitive multiplayer games, this is a serious matter, especially when “competitive multiplayer” is ascended to “eSports”.

That community is one that obsesses about scan and poll frequencies on their keyboards and mice, refresh rates and display latencies on their monitors, and all that jazz.  You won’t convince them to switch to Wifi for their main battlestation, *even if* the present bloat problems are fixed.  They’ll tolerate it for a laptop on which they do their homework, that’s all.

However it is also true that for a certain type of low-end user, “wireless” operation is “simpler” and “neater”, no matter what form it takes.  They hardly even notice any performance problems that come with it, or accept them as a fact of life with "newfangled technological thingamajigs”.

 - Jonathan Morton

Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] USB3 or HDMI ethernet? - Are wires dead?

[Aaron Wood]

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My experiences with users and installers for internet-connected services is
that unless it's in the modem/router, immediately next to the modem/router,
the wire is dead.  For a small apartment dweller who's on cable, with a
smart tv, that means that they _can_ wire the tv to the modem (since it's
probably also their cable box), and that might be easier than dealing with
wifi credentials.  But pretty much all other use-cases are wifi.

My personal view is that if it doesn't move, it should have a wire (because
it needs one anyway).  TVs, media-players, cameras, thermostats.  If it
needs data, and it doesn't run on batteries, we should provide both power
and data over the same cable.  But then I don't _ever_ want to set another
clock.  Run an ntpd service within the home, and call it done.

Free.fr in Paris used ethernet over powerline with their Freeboxes, to get
service from the entry-point to the TV.  AT&T is doing the same with their
service, as is BT.  I'm using a pair of those here to get ethernet out to
the office above the garage (with an AP out there).  It's only about
100Mbps, but better than wifi extenders by a long shot.

Un-bloated power-line-to-AP units would be awesome.  As would power-line to
POE adapters for small electronics.  Although you have the same difficulty
with on-boarding there that you do with wifi.

-Aaron Wood

On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 9:35 AM, Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> > On 18 Apr, 2016, at 17:50, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > But it asks a question - if basic wifi-only + compute has fallen so low,
> is ethernet dead?
>
> Among the serious PC gaming community, it’s widely recognised that wired
> links (both LAN and WAN) have much lower latency and packet loss than
> wireless ones.  In competitive multiplayer games, this is a serious matter,
> especially when “competitive multiplayer” is ascended to “eSports”.
>
> That community is one that obsesses about scan and poll frequencies on
> their keyboards and mice, refresh rates and display latencies on their
> monitors, and all that jazz.  You won’t convince them to switch to Wifi for
> their main battlestation, *even if* the present bloat problems are fixed.
> They’ll tolerate it for a laptop on which they do their homework, that’s
> all.
>
> However it is also true that for a certain type of low-end user,
> “wireless” operation is “simpler” and “neater”, no matter what form it
> takes.  They hardly even notice any performance problems that come with it,
> or accept them as a fact of life with "newfangled technological
> thingamajigs”.
>
>  - Jonathan Morton
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
>

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Re: [Cerowrt-devel] USB3 or HDMI ethernet? - Are wires dead?

[Dave Taht]

On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
> I wanted to be able to do wifi aircaps at scale,  So I figured I'd
> load up a nuc with a bunch of usb wifi sticks. I got a w(hole bunch of
> those - the horrors! the horrors that the drivers revealed...
>
> then I ran across the compute stick phenomenon,
>
> Holy cow, 59 dollars for an entire computer - with wifi on board.
>

> http://www.amazon.com/Intel-Compute-STCK1A8LFC-Z3735F-Ubuntu/dp/B00W7KAABK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1460990238&sr=8-1&keywords=ubuntu+compute+stick

So I got one of these older models to play with. It came in a nice
box. It was marvelous to plug the male hdmi port directly into my
stereo A/V amp and have it automatically install and configure ubuntu
14.04LTS (kernel 3.16). It took a while to install itself, but after
about 15 minutes of updating I had got it up and running. It's pretty
neat as a desktop, not particularly fast, but once an app is loaded
it's "good enough" for day to day work.

I added a 19 dollar 32Gbyte SDHC card to use as my "home" directory,
as there is only about 5GB usable on the stick itself (71% of the
internal emmc used by default), bringing my total cost to under a
hundred bucks.

I played with it a bit...

Sound doesn't work, which eliminates my musical use case (at least for
now). I thought maybe this would be a good option for a midi
controller, also, might try that.

The wifi does ~10Mbits in my admittedly crowded spectrum. The linux
log fills with all sorts of RTL871X debug messages, and the thing is
about as bloated as the ath9k can be - 344-500ms delay on the up in
netperf.

The wifi is a realtek chip, ironically, I guess, intel couldn't fit
one of their wifi cards into it: rtl8723bs

And my original use case of having a compute stick I could use to
sample the air with? So far with various tools I haven't been able to
get a monitor interface to work. :(

Overall it's kind of nice to have an intel architecture box that costs
about the same as a tricked out raspberry pi. I'd like it if I could
power it via a conventional usb port and network it that way, but
haven't tried that yet.

I am tempted to pick up one of the windows versions to play with.

> --
> Dave Täht
> Save BoatyMcBoatFace from extinction by humorless science ministers!
> https://twitter.com/hashtag/boatymcboatface



-- 
Dave Täht
Let's go make home routers and wifi faster! With better software!
http://blog.cerowrt.org

Re: [Cerowrt-devel] USB3 or HDMI ethernet? - Are wires dead?

[Dave Taht]

It looks like hdmi ethernet simply never deployed.

http://www.slideshare.net/44Con/what-the-hec-security-implications-of-hdmi-ethernet-channel-and-other-related-protocols-44con-2012

I guess USB3 is the answer. What was the question?