From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oi0-x22e.google.com (mail-oi0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7B4D3B2B2 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 00:20:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id a64so15842313oii.2 for ; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 21:20:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=OTWd4bGgxFUw6Dzqi0JYvGfrxdoRCsjH5dKtDtOyHVo=; b=QIaVUqcVFQFaFWIP77aYD/0eU/UGXljsk734Np/en4JAFrOwaIsD5yJ4Yw+tdmTEvc pkBURFzva8PHnp2XSoYiceamJi3oeW8Jgth2OX/Uu6Hv7bKF6TohbiD9zdcXP5fYZo3d zzxtqEc47Pbc2NMwI/SIiWlNcOyvD972vmCt+auDGtMan/z7FDqGk4G49Udvb/SEO1Ds dCST2n+TCPXt5JVA5w4pVrhmS2sPQP7QFTwmQsBL5lQWjRrpxpSiF2KA7dYaawbwYhfn RjtrSmS3Mg1Ny+MMJpOQjpjwwq47wGg1F10qibmf5/Mk0BhIoAuy1E7P0B7VOILB1LfX dUYA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OTWd4bGgxFUw6Dzqi0JYvGfrxdoRCsjH5dKtDtOyHVo=; b=U5wJ/GoTR+U8FAA+/gzZzcNXpzLqfP/2iG1cpEXjvX7VSgG1Fpa7HZ2ufQvqNYIqOr EzSHj1BdvO7JkBWZm2GmqeFXfn3SIPkDFcyCw+gHBy9Mn5YcWpuszKT+OKawJU4mxKpd S1wYebwiH03aWp7P7D4ChE7EQkS+3cuneGF+OqmW2c5nuaBb5IDUKS2RUcityWWmGbNN g/KohocDI8JSnp7uiXrI0HkYrBubZ8kfkYWYzAN4VaDYOaTxXINwncM2SpWwp6tvWC0z XmJLJcg7bhVrpdyjoIsL6PpGfZFuBeh4bXEqA+EQ2IvSHulN01VRh4SFy1IwaKXmcrqx zkcw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJW7DNEnPUylZ7RqKcgg/RRw4cXnkkTA+tTDhkOHIZ23yy8TpWcYoBPmpPmGSIO4g4yJT0Q/IBlbMFuDg== X-Received: by 10.157.56.101 with SMTP id r34mr5956268otd.154.1466310001273; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 21:20:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.202.175.130 with HTTP; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 21:20:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <480A221C-E51E-4A77-A0DA-105DD2E0E427@gmail.com> References: <480A221C-E51E-4A77-A0DA-105DD2E0E427@gmail.com> From: Dave Taht Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 21:20:00 -0700 Message-ID: To: Jonathan Morton Cc: "cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] qos calculator & paper for htb rate selection X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 04:20:02 -0000 I liked the question they tried to answer, if not their results. :) As I push a downstream shaper closer to 95% I have been able to get to where there is sufficient buffering one hop away to where it takes 10s of seconds or forever for an aqm to drain the result. Your efforts towards measuring smoothness seemed like a partial start to having some other trigger to get back minimum queuing, but not quite. The fact that the 85% number is essentially folklore rather than science is bothersome. I've spent a lot of time over the last 5 years researching various models, queue theories, statistical distributions, and so on, and don't feel like I'm any further better off than I was when I started. There's always things that look promising (see, for example "hopf bifurcation" for something I'm trying to understand currently), other things like alternate statistical distribution methods, which seem to show a tantalizing hint of working, and they always peter out... There are a lot of people that believe in policers, also, and I have had such bad results with those as to give up. It would be nice to *prove* that policers didn't work or establish the bounds of their range, also. I go back and I read how clearly understood some things could be back in the 90s, and I envy those people - but I imagine those things were just as confusing at the time those papers were being written as clear as they may now seem. Another paper "sticking with me is:" https://plus.google.com/u/0/107942175615993706558/posts/gC6oahMETvr and yet: This is the best book on bloat I've read yet: https://plus.google.com/u/0/107942175615993706558/posts/adye5CKrPMF