From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ob0-x22f.google.com (mail-ob0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ACB5921F3DF; Mon, 18 Aug 2014 15:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-f175.google.com with SMTP id wp18so4481108obc.20 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2014 15:00:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=LadzDQuFx6DaZGYhxwNr/mo+BVIUKWAYi3dVmHgQEEA=; b=fCLJibuvb/d2+BVqdrwcIegCspR+e1uxTD+xHY6n/OJGvaXvMNAhSpkjiHpnQ4/+7S HkiDlS7QqxqzUNZLkSzlKRuwKDqfCqezie8UxQW7jMaQSzQ/Wf0WiWZu0g8iO7dWlAaz 6S+8kaToIxPQRJBK9SnrcYH5L9v0eo2Tr7DoPezDwBvt3p95Sf8Gy50tDOa4rOQnSIde JB3YfcoBtkDsmGyW6e2EMj7w0EVln+W52zfmE/S9bAG0C7WxzflfFJPxD+eYIM7mUO1H BIDP9npBnk03mWu57TljVOcNrZm6q+nVmJlbTDigjRkka35xAbl9v3eUl/p90xNpZ/DS v2oQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.246.39 with SMTP id xt7mr39744740obc.63.1408399245563; Mon, 18 Aug 2014 15:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.93.69 with HTTP; Mon, 18 Aug 2014 15:00:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20140815205123.GB30452@thyrsus.com> <1408295613.063215615@apps.rackspace.com> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 17:00:45 -0500 Message-ID: From: Dave Taht To: Frank Carmickle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" , bloat Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] still trying to find hardware for the next generation worth hacking on X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 22:00:47 -0000 On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 3:51 PM, Frank Carmickle wrot= e: > > On Aug 17, 2014, at 1:13 PM, dpreed@reed.com wrote: > > http://www.habeyusa.com/products/fwmb-7950-rangeley-network-communication= -board/ > looks intriguing. > > > This, and others like it from Supermicro and Asrock, are what I am > interested in. I'm not so sure this is what Dave is looking for. These = are > not sub $100 boards by any stretch. I happen to like IPMI serial over LA= N > and don't really want to live without it. I built a Habey fanless chassi= s > and a Asrock board system with 16gb of RAm a few months ago. The Habey > fanless chassis is pretty nice except that it smelled awful. They have a= n > external inline power brick with a barrel connector that is converted to = atx > by a small board in the chassis. This way I also get to run Debian witho= ut > worrying about filling up some small flash. > > Dave, are you looking for something for the masses? No, I'm looking for something to do further, open, effective, bleeding edge and game changing research on... a project that will run for another 3+ years... ...that eventually will be something for the masses. Cost is not a huge object right now. Cheap in 3 years would be a good goal. On the high end, for example, are things like netfpga, and lower cost options like the parallella architecture. http://netfpga.org/ http://www.parallella.org/ It does seem like better hardware offloads need to be developed to ensure t= hat rate scheduling, AQM, and fair queuing, can move into new hardware. I agree with other folk on this thread that we are in a transition period where the cost-effective chips have offloads that interfere with further bufferbloat related research, even on the technologies that are relatively open (ethernet, wifi). This situation is far worse on access technologies such as 3g, and lte, cable, and gpon, which are black boxes out of reach of open and academic researchers. About the only FTTH technology that is relatively accessible is single mode fiber ethernet, and it appears to be uncommon except in municipalities that have mandated ISP competition (for example: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2010/03/how-amsterdam-was-wired-for-open= -access-fiber/ ) In the cases where we can make a difference, the only cpu technologies that appear capable of doing GigE and software rate limiting and codel seem to be x86 based. (And only intel! even a amd box, recently benchmarked, couldn't forward at > 700Mbit) I even have doubts about the atom box mentioned earlier, the available cache sizes are quite small, and ivy bridge based platforms seem better, but only testing could tell. Although I like the turrus project, I too am dubious about the future for power pc in these marketplace. I've had a chat with atheros about some of their new stuff, I'm not sure what of that I can share here (yet). Will let you all know when I can. I think all options are open. I'd like to have a project that could indeed be funded (for a change!) - AND make a difference - and be fun and useful for everyone here and a variety of other research-y projects like project bismark, the EFF work, commotion wireless, etc, etc. An ideal project would be to produce an entirely open high speed router that anyone could make. Shorter term... it would be nice to find a board that "just worked" well with the SQM system, up to 300mbit, however. That covers the largest band of ISP deployments for the next several years. And I, at least, have competing goals - there are the gateway problem, and the DSLAM/CMTS/GPON head end problem... and then there's fixing wifi, which is nearest and dearest to my heart. At the moment I'm planning on switching to some x86 box to prototype solutions for make-wifi-fast, (due to ease of debugging mostly, availability of mini-pcie, also). 802.11ac is presently a mess... So I appreciate the suggestions so far, keep them coming! All options are on the table and what we'll congeal on or not congeal on is wildly variable, but I would like to find a way focus enough folk on solving any one problem to get decent results inside of a year. Note: I am at sigcomm and linuxcon this week in chicago and my replies will be sparse. My morning's keynote at the congestion control workshop slides are up at: http://snapon.lab.bufferbloat.net/~d/sigcomm2014.pdf (Sadly, not recorded) > > --FC > > > > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht NSFW: https://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Internet_censorship_bills/russell_0296_= indecent.article