From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-io1-xd33.google.com (mail-io1-xd33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CFB2F3B29E; Sat, 2 Jan 2021 16:39:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-io1-xd33.google.com with SMTP id 81so21519410ioc.13; Sat, 02 Jan 2021 13:39:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=OrQAj9qHQws0Zm5CIBrGNkjJcr7ijBAMMXHJreXDCIc=; b=W9zrB0n0Nupjy3unIxZzT3FnuyeM5SDIASJ0JNQjWoeBdJU5LbcvwdXsNMoGckM5+K mYtTGCGC2UDrCqA8qtJ0ZKbJVJZ6B5dAgh0kqfdOFUoua2BlRtdYeqh31bEyFBdJcqHM eihKCHRFdwd19yCDaGRmkvVxIhK9OIlj17hlJvXgFC5xri2Y61M8af8ripbVrqi4GPgN jZVorvhoUSsAbWiAbh9qTwtlFSpfPUwWanBg4cl5BXl6ochrZDOND85+saxb5jDDkm/s PQke5PKREbmPgUwvWJNhAW59BSdmEAyLi2P2N7PYLd9319e4VIAzgGvEXtZLHvQcj1JY hGlQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OrQAj9qHQws0Zm5CIBrGNkjJcr7ijBAMMXHJreXDCIc=; b=T7jedto2m8sbTW31rbJtZxjX3X3S1SszsqokOgy9UNT20z+D8wnePNBAgzl1bHQoKr ktBMnT67fSmL+rBvWU23EZhICSGT3Q9DFvRxIvsJd4fafj7//pDEKYsCkXuf7O2AJg3U Xusx94YfvSlHSOcZu+IaX8tizNHdtLgkf1c6o7Ydj18AQUuT4kcLiIhCHQM2u4zC/UNU cIHSjI1bXZXGdQc5YKKl7BxA/oI1YaqVWgpu+dnhGUYuAG5hVtoRiJNEQKBwAOaTRCs/ +6CHIyUkajtEtU0zYMcvaDDhwM1qa5PB01KNEOY2z3aNqANSkn49WizD9fmtZQebyH9E wPig== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530doPrjbf+bUx7rNs0t2hetQ3d90c9foKkeGI++hPTKtS0dRNy+ 6uYVmKoJb2knwOf03f88W2gWodePWZllnRyH+Eg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz/q5DowRLOfQaByyaz5rHrloQ4DVOhnMBnGak+zGDxTkClT11rpKK4mI3j4nHhk5/Qp0B38I2l8zF+LS1fWGU= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:2c52:: with SMTP id s79mr52821939ios.53.1609623583053; Sat, 02 Jan 2021 13:39:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1609543872.082620517@apps.rackspace.com> In-Reply-To: From: Scott Manley Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 13:39:31 -0800 Message-ID: To: Dave Taht Cc: "David P. Reed" , bloat , cerowrt-devel Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e3db6405b7f1b151" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 02 Jan 2021 17:44:51 -0500 Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] my thx to spacex (and kerbal space program) forcheering me up all year X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Jan 2021 21:39:43 -0000 --000000000000e3db6405b7f1b151 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oh but I'm fascinated by the discussion of Starlink's network performance.! On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 9:17 AM Dave Taht wrote: > Taking scott manley off the cc. As much as I would like him to sit in > on that song, I don't think he cares about bufferbloat as much as Id > like him to.... I do wish I knew someone that could just magically get > the bufferbloat issue raised within > starlink effectively.... > > On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 3:31 PM David P. Reed wrote: > > > > It has bufferbloat? > > Yep. See links below. > > > Why am I not surprised? > > I was surprised given the length of the talk I'd had with their VP, > eng, but I do figure that getting the thing working at all > was a greater challenge than tackling our issue. I've long worried of > course, that the mac layer on this thing was going to be very weird, > and since they were working with qca they'd end up buring everything > in the network offload processors, even though at present speeds the > cpu they are using is *loafing*, Im not as optimistic as jon is as to > how easy the port of cake or fq_codel would be to their hardware as it > is variable bandwidth and thus needs bql-like backpressure. > > > Since there doesn't seem to be a gpl drop yet we don't know a lot, > however there was a teardown of the hw and jim's posting and a start > at testing on reddit - the dslreports test was flawed in that ping did > not work at all.... > > > https://www.reddit.com/r/Starlink/comments/k0dwon/starlink_and_bufferbloa= t_testing/ > > rate limiting with sqm works: > > > https://www.reddit.com/r/Starlink/comments/jxkef9/ahat_is_your_starlinks_= bufferbloat_score/ > > and the starlink teardown was good: > > https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/kchxl8/starlink_teardown_and_a= nalysis/ > > We think that this hardware actually has fq_codel AND hw rate limiting > in it. But that's not the right thing for a starlink up or downlink > which is variable rate. > > any I know at least 5 people on the beta list and maybe we can get > better testing done in the next month or two. > > It would of course be great if somehow we could get loud enough for > musk to tweet back or hire one of us to help 'em get it right.... I > had a friend of mine send him a suitably inscribed copy of toke's > "bufferbloat and beyond" via interoffice mail... but finding someone > up there more focused on the terminal software itself would be better. > I mean low latency should be their bread and butter and while Im sad > that the early tests are dismal, I am pretty confident that ultimately > they will get it right. > > > I can share that one stack hasn't had it from the start, by design. Tha= t > is one implemented for trading at 10+ GB/sec, implemented in Verilog, and > now apparently in production use at one of the largest NY trading > intermediaries. > > Yea! > > > > > Why? Simply two reasons: > > > > 1. People who design parallel hardware systems are trained to focus on > closing timing constraints. Which means never using FIFOs that are longer > than absolute minimum. The designer is a VLSI designer by trade, not a > networking guy. > > > > 2. Trading is all about managing delay. In this case, 100 msec packet > delay is worst allowable case end to end. > > > > Yet it is full TCP in hardware. > > > > Can't share more, because I don't know more, it being all proprietary t= o > the bank in question. > > > > Now, one wonders: why can't Starlink get it right first time? > > > > It's not like bufferbloat is hard on a single bent pipe hop, which is > all Starlink does today. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Dave Taht" > > Sent: Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 1:37 pm > > To: "bloat" , "cerowrt-devel" < > cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net>, "Scott Manley" < > scottmanley1972@gmail.com> > > Cc: "bloat" , "cerowrt-devel" < > cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net>, "Scott Manley" < > scottmanley1972@gmail.com> > > Subject: [Cerowrt-devel] my thx to spacex (and kerbal space program) > forcheering me up all year > > > > If it wasn't for such a long list of wonderful accomplishments in > > space, it would have been a sadder year. i just re-recorded my song > > "one first landing" out on my dinghy: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dwjur0RG-v-I&feature=3Dyoutu.be > > > > Maybe someday I'll get scott manley to do his verse on this. Try as I > > might over the past few years, I still can't cop his accent. > > > > Now if we can only fix starlink's bufferbloat! It looks to me like the > > firmware is QCA's openwrt derivative... > > > > -- > > "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public > > relations, for Mother Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman > > > > dave@taht.net CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel: 1-831-435-0729 > > _______________________________________________ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > > > > > > > -- > "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public > relations, for Mother Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman > > dave@taht.net CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel: 1-831-435-0729 > --000000000000e3db6405b7f1b151 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Oh but I'm fascinated by the discussion of Starlink= 9;s network performance.!

On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 9:17 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
Taking scott manley of= f the cc. As much as I would like him to sit in
on that song, I don't think he cares about bufferbloat as much as Id like him to.... I do wish I knew someone that could just magically get
the bufferbloat issue raised within
starlink effectively....

On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 3:31 PM David P. Reed <dpreed@deepplum.com> wrote:
>
> It has bufferbloat?

Yep. See links below.

> Why am I not surprised?

I was surprised given the length of the talk I'd had with their VP,
eng, but I do figure that getting the thing working at all
was a greater challenge than tackling our issue. I've long worried of course, that the mac layer on this thing was going to be very weird,
and since they were working with qca they'd end up buring everything in the network offload processors, even though at present speeds the
cpu they are using is *loafing*, Im not as optimistic as jon is as to
how easy the port of cake or fq_codel would be to their hardware as it
is variable bandwidth and thus needs bql-like backpressure.


Since there doesn't seem to be a gpl drop yet we don't know a lot,<= br> however there was a teardown of the hw and jim's posting and a start at testing on reddit - the dslreports test was flawed in that ping did
not work at all....

https://www.reddi= t.com/r/Starlink/comments/k0dwon/starlink_and_bufferbloat_testing/

rate limiting with sqm works:

https://w= ww.reddit.com/r/Starlink/comments/jxkef9/ahat_is_your_starlinks_bufferbloat= _score/

and the starlink teardown was good:
https://www.reddit.= com/r/hardware/comments/kchxl8/starlink_teardown_and_analysis/

We think that this hardware actually has fq_codel AND hw rate limiting
in it. But that's not the right thing for a starlink up or downlink
which is variable rate.

any I know at least 5 people on the beta list and maybe we can get
better testing done in the next month or two.

It would of course be great if somehow we could get loud enough for
musk to tweet back or hire one of us to help 'em get it right.... I
had a friend of mine send him a suitably inscribed copy of toke's
"bufferbloat and beyond" via interoffice mail... but finding some= one
up there more focused on the terminal software itself would be better.
I mean low latency should be their bread and butter and while Im sad
that the early tests are dismal, I am pretty confident that ultimately
they will get it right.

> I can share that one stack hasn't had it from the start, by design= . That is one implemented for trading at 10+ GB/sec, implemented in Verilog= , and now apparently in production use at one of the largest NY trading int= ermediaries.

Yea!

>
> Why? Simply two reasons:
>
> 1. People who design parallel hardware systems are trained to focus on= closing timing constraints. Which means never using FIFOs that are longer = than absolute minimum. The designer is a VLSI designer by trade, not a netw= orking guy.
>
> 2. Trading is all about managing delay. In this case, 100 msec packet = delay is worst allowable case end to end.
>
> Yet it is full TCP in hardware.
>
> Can't share more, because I don't know more, it being all prop= rietary to the bank in question.
>
> Now, one wonders: why can't Starlink get it right first time?
>
> It's not like bufferbloat is hard on a single bent pipe hop, which= is all Starlink does today.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Dave Taht" <dave.taht@gmail.com>
> Sent: Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 1:37 pm
> To: "bloat" <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>, "cerowrt-dev= el" <cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net>, "Scott Manley= " <s= cottmanley1972@gmail.com>
> Cc: "bloat" <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>, "cerowrt-dev= el" <cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net>, "Scott Manley= " <s= cottmanley1972@gmail.com>
> Subject: [Cerowrt-devel] my thx to spacex (and kerbal space program) f= orcheering me up all year
>
> If it wasn't for such a long list of wonderful accomplishments in<= br> > space, it would have been a sadder year. i just re-recorded my song > "one first landing" out on my dinghy:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/w= atch?v=3Dwjur0RG-v-I&feature=3Dyoutu.be
>
> Maybe someday I'll get scott manley to do his verse on this. Try a= s I
> might over the past few years, I still can't cop his accent.
>
> Now if we can only fix starlink's bufferbloat! It looks to me like= the
> firmware is QCA's openwrt derivative...
>
> --
> "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over p= ublic
> relations, for Mother Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman<= br> >
> dave@taht.net= =C2=A0 CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel: 1-831-435-0729
> _______________________________________________
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/ce= rowrt-devel
>
>


--
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public=
relations, for Mother Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman

dave@taht.net <Da= ve T=C3=A4ht> CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel: 1-831-435-0729
--000000000000e3db6405b7f1b151--