From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm0-x22c.google.com (mail-wm0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18BC03B2A4; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 05:43:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-wm0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id i11so13334903wmf.4; Mon, 04 Dec 2017 02:43:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=TeBmGPm5IhUknYh9+MUI9ij74zbMMNIBLvPXV/ginqs=; b=EprH3GlkYhJLj+0Xi7Uer/oT0nWXhKRBdYsMdSrcjTbfWBOm6Ujk5e8u86+0MtvyqW tMw3lQw6sxYPwa5l9Ooz+gtA5UcjxyeFIViXgT5mQFkJZtt0lZeacAR36poUI0zfB7gM sSBQ3Xm8TMC3/0DNJpwER0i9Tn8Ot7rlbxlKKavc6tvhh59LS6BH2899gdhrxuLZhDNr iQQ6PoRnLAXHZnvLC7S8UCTnIcyR9Oq9qcN8VoeK5Q1o+PbnNUMGfEjq1wPEXln80UPv xZu3HWuLHbLGYzFMu6Rec3cyLULKgclnp8wM3QmjnWer/Sly5k52pQu+VV0GnDjZvAkI 7OFw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TeBmGPm5IhUknYh9+MUI9ij74zbMMNIBLvPXV/ginqs=; b=P86uvonqGss++jXI1QFWLcCqgwxfG89n0LYa17fN5WMMXi9SkmPtRFYU5gltsRzmZ8 aNI7SZKBDMn070hvX8gnQPSMPy4dLyzxVhOQBcHzd6Bsjjy+FjchjUGld7mvn5XiHcEP CKOH/pX84KzHPg75EFaqDBdGPSOOaUE/u4LRbs8ArMZqB3W4zaLWkpwnETcBFbVocb3q OkG+N1HVN6m9sbfD67Ki4Bow6rmGNv+fWPz4AHaRWDzV5KBR1FvDw2yx9OfUWRp23f6H lA7QPg8BYCY5ojcSHL+/OBO3hawNo6J5+cjtMR9t4AWpz5XZ9gmjxwaIfmRyU5eY8fq8 eblQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mJfAqT3JW26HNpe9e2P6mbYcnrd4WEkxAdVmDiakp2deSzi2dbo SJSYrRgXwkywZ8JuPLteqVVWEZg9kVhOxoDIEMLrFg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMbs8RpCHxsqAtlj6jsKavC3wnGm/bkenIN2MUOrwGKcR/wrWUx4pw1RSPVuqaDzfE1mSSPHRAbPFgMFJVqsrGg= X-Received: by 10.80.149.94 with SMTP id v30mr6271108eda.284.1512384209852; Mon, 04 Dec 2017 02:43:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.144.38 with HTTP; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 02:43:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <92906bd8-7bad-945d-83c8-a2f9598aac2c@lackof.org> <87bmjff7l6.fsf_-_@nemesis.taht.net> From: Pedro Tumusok Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 11:43:29 +0100 Message-ID: To: bloat Cc: "cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c199052979ce9055f8163b4" Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] DC behaviors today X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 10:43:31 -0000 --94eb2c199052979ce9055f8163b4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For in home or even SMB, I doubt that 10G to the user PC is the main use case. Its having the uplink capable of support of more than1G, that 1G does not necessarily need to be generated by only one host on the LAN. Pedro On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling wrote: > How to deliver a switch, when the wiring and port standard isn't > actually workable? > > 10GBase-T is out of Voltage Spec with SFP+ ; you can get copper SFP+ > but they are out of spec... 10GbaseT doesn't really work over Cat5e > more than a couple of meters (if you are lucky) and even Cat6 is only > rated at 30M... there is a reason no-one is producing Home Copper > switches and it's not just the NIC Silicon cost (that was a factor > until Recently obviously, but only part of the equation). > > On the flip side: > Right now I am typing this via a 40gbit network, comprised of the > cheap and readily available Tb3 port - it's daisy chained and limited > to 6 ports, but right now it's easily the cheapest and most effective > port. Pitty that the fabled optical tb3 cables are damn expensive... > so you're limited to daisy-chains of 2m. They seem to have screwed the > pooch on the USB-C network standard quite badly - which looked so > promising, so for the moment Tb3 it is for me at least. > > On 4 December 2017 at 23:18, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > > On Mon, 4 Dec 2017, Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling wrote: > > > >> I'm not going to pretend that 1Gig isn't enough for most people. But I > >> refuse to believe it's the networks equivalent of a 10A power (20A > >> depending on where you live in the world) AC residential phase > >> distribution circuit. > > > > > > That's a good analogy. I actually believe it is, at least for the near > 5-10 > > years. > > > >> This isn't a question about what people need, it's more about what the > >> market can deliver. 10GPON (GPON-X) and others now make it a viable > >> service that can and is being deployed in residential and commercial > >> access networks. > > > > > > Well, you're sharing that bw with everybody else on that splitter. > Sounds to > > me that the service being delivered over that would instead be in the 2= -3 > > gigabit/s range for the individual subscriber (this is what I typically > see > > on equivalent shared mediums, that the top speed individual subscriptio= ns > > are will be in the 20-40% of max theoretical speed the entire solution > can > > deliver). > > > >> The problem is now that Retail Servicer Provider X can deliver a post > >> Gigabit service... what is capable of taking it off the ONU/CMNT point > in > >> the home? As usual it's a follow the money question, once RSP's can > deliver > >> Gbit+ they will need an ecosystem in the home to feed into it, and > right now > >> there isn't a good technology platform that supports it; > 10GBase-X/10GBaseT > >> is a non-starter due to the variability in home wiring - arguably the = 7 > year > >> leap from 100-1000mbit was easy It's mean a gap of 12 years and > counting for > >> the same.. it's not just the NIC's and CPU's in the gateways it's the > >> connector and in-home wiring problems as well. > > > > > > As soon as one goes above 1GE, prices increases A LOT on everything > > involved. I doubt we'll see any 2.5G or higher speed equipment in wide > use > > in home/SME in the next 5 years. > > > >> Blatant Plug - request : > >> I'm interested to hear opinions on this as I have a talk on this very > >> topic 'The long and Winding Road to 10Gbit+ in the home' > >> https://linux.conf.au/ at Linuxconf in January. In particular if you > >> have any home network gore/horror stories and photos you would be > >> happy for me to include in my talk, please include. > > > > > > I am still waiting for a decently priced 10GE switch. I can get 1GE > 24port > > managed ones, fanless, for 100-200USD. As soon as I go 10GE, price jump= s > up > > a lot, and I get fans. The NICs aren't widely available, even though > they're > > not the biggest problem. My in-house cabling can do 10GE, but I guess > I'm an > > outlier. > > > > > > -- > > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > --=20 Best regards / Mvh Jan Pedro Tumusok --94eb2c199052979ce9055f8163b4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For in home or even SMB, I doubt that 10G to the user PC i= s the main use case.
Its having the uplink capable of support of more t= han1G, that 1G does not necessarily need to be generated by only one host o= n the LAN.=C2=A0



Ped= ro

On = Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling &l= t;joel@aenertia.net<= /a>> wrote:
How to deliver a sw= itch, when the wiring and port standard isn't
actually workable?

10GBase-T is out of Voltage Spec with SFP+ ; you can get copper SFP+
but they are out of spec... 10GbaseT doesn't really work over Cat5e
more than a couple of meters (if you are lucky) and even Cat6 is only
rated at 30M... there is a reason no-one is producing Home Copper
switches and it's not just the NIC Silicon cost (that was a factor
until Recently obviously, but only part of the equation).

On the flip side:
Right now I am typing this via a 40gbit network, comprised of the
cheap and readily available Tb3 port - it's daisy chained and limited to 6 ports, but right now it's easily the cheapest and most effective port. Pitty that the fabled optical tb3 cables are damn expensive...
so you're limited to daisy-chains of 2m. They seem to have screwed the<= br> pooch on the USB-C network standard quite badly - which looked so
promising, so for the moment Tb3 it is for me at least.

On 4 December 2017 at 23:18, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se> wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Dec 2017, Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling wrote:
>
>> I'm not going to pretend that 1Gig isn't enough for most p= eople. But I
>> refuse to believe it's the networks equivalent of a 10A power = (20A
>> depending on where you live in the world) AC residential phase
>> distribution circuit.
>
>
> That's a good analogy. I actually believe it is, at least for the = near 5-10
> years.
>
>> This isn't a question about what people need, it's more ab= out what the
>> market can deliver. 10GPON (GPON-X) and others now make it a viabl= e
>> service that can and is being deployed in residential and commerci= al
>> access networks.
>
>
> Well, you're sharing that bw with everybody else on that splitter.= Sounds to
> me that the service being delivered over that would instead be in the = 2-3
> gigabit/s range for the individual subscriber (this is what I typicall= y see
> on equivalent shared mediums, that the top speed individual subscripti= ons
> are will be in the 20-40% of max theoretical speed the entire solution= can
> deliver).
>
>> The problem is now that Retail Servicer Provider X can deliver a p= ost
>> Gigabit service... what is capable of taking it off the ONU/CMNT p= oint in
>> the home? As usual it's a follow the money question, once RSP&= #39;s can deliver
>> Gbit+ they will need an ecosystem in the home to feed into it, and= right now
>> there isn't a good technology platform that supports it; 10GBa= se-X/10GBaseT
>> is a non-starter due to the variability in home wiring - arguably = the 7 year
>> leap from 100-1000mbit was easy It's mean a gap of 12 years an= d counting for
>> the same.. it's not just the NIC's and CPU's in the ga= teways it's the
>> connector and in-home wiring problems as well.
>
>
> As soon as one goes above 1GE, prices increases A LOT on everything > involved. I doubt we'll see any 2.5G or higher speed equipment in = wide use
> in home/SME in the next 5 years.
>
>> Blatant Plug - request :
>> I'm interested to hear opinions on this as I have a talk on th= is very
>> topic 'The long and Winding Road to 10Gbit+ in the home' >> https://linux.conf.au/ at Linuxconf in January. In particular if = you
>> have any home network gore/horror stories and photos you would be<= br> >> happy for me to include in my talk, please include.
>
>
> I am still waiting for a decently priced 10GE switch. I can get 1GE 24= port
> managed ones, fanless, for 100-200USD. As soon as I go 10GE, price jum= ps up
> a lot, and I get fans. The NICs aren't widely available, even thou= gh they're
> not the biggest problem. My in-house cabling can do 10GE, but I guess = I'm an
> outlier.
>
>
> --
> Mikael Abrahamsson=C2=A0 =C2=A0 email: swmike@swm.pp.se
_______________________= ________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net<= /a>
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat



--
=
Best rega= rds / Mvh
Jan Pedro Tumusok

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