From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from strange.networkguild.org (strange.networkguild.org [IPv6:2600:3c02:e000:dd::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 830C03B2A4; Wed, 2 Apr 2025 23:28:55 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iconia.com; s=strange; t=1743650934; bh=qtc+wBYnr+7/+oP28oP06runs9nvrYTRAA0MFAm0Kj4=; h=References:In-Reply-To:From:Date:Subject:To:Cc:From; b=HTfEYepHWwXL0htTwZLJ74wbi954d1xlIGyOP72V1rY5O2PaAZ5W7MMTrqOkaLVOv 8hTGNdASfkmzMx/cLjGJ8ObU0WL2KDmno3l0SC3qA0iUb2f/PqRefQIfJkm3SNfsUF 8YkVJaxfpEA8WmPFJWLAezV2OATOLHkXjLS9YZCFXWURJ4dq9Yh9w0MfJ8apGsYuOO 9PIZIItEpDvSZ8OIT534G+AGy8sj6KZ8XYDUnNe91vvRNxfcv7yB5Zhiqr0e0Xsveu eq+V/DqKJFwoW5JaT93ZFUpj86QQ+na57h+6vtt3L8+I4WZ5J3RKceXOCFdLb9qXeA qRBnrQcw6oQnQ== Received: from auth (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by strange.networkguild.org (8.17.1.9/8.17.1.9/Debian-2+deb12u2) with ESMTPSA id 5333Smga2351029 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 2 Apr 2025 23:28:48 -0400 Received: by mail-qt1-f180.google.com with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-47690a4ec97so4468541cf.2; Wed, 02 Apr 2025 20:28:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCU6Kt1LFEj1PFvtgkvly2mA8ZpZq0TpHpBMHwS+G1t8o2sG2TE9KzXUrIQx6Ej0QLs2VZIkNV7mX52/N+3sO/U=@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCUEfypVF4PTM0Zc+wqDdmPb+uS1YBzyKFK0AKVEMAHzIu6MmxCnvAD9LpFiq7c096xWv60tUDqU36fRmTyZnw==@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCUKU2dave66ziGqVpivv/0naWZjJu5CUuCuKisPs+YozvuZk+ARPdea3/tehIFE0kldmS0vDjL+y2alD4RKiKY=@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCUebilEZUEd1R92N73uYwu6zrDgASrQnAJ63ImsMQHV2kjsvY8nlFc7qz/q1EIigN96+wlrkHkVNklJkzbcFg==@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCUhSOjB8XavcbBTXMttuCzk2eCdAIXmIRkNClmibXRPcbUqK3OvqX+jcNCxfjORzvluTrUequ8=@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCV1G6ugrB8FWa8vf9gAfS9tELSYqDt1KliedRV2fbP8ctlpgdiGEVBMvGceITtBkeWp2YJbam0=@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCVCoyhnxygVGw2rt9xMqxRAeXQjDwKoRd9CJaJsHgy5IDeqdJRDh6iEELFGAVxQOngEuIhiJw==@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCVTuLASYvXKhZXuoIxP+ZYsSVeRiuSUvpjGzChkCs7T4rC6tadZVHkQ+k0xkzqUnTcIah1c@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCVgubVdvItjyfrJGphNqnQ/UEMSqIQj2wiLrQeZrbNyIRyQst7sJKRoqsqGOefMYsU3M/iomNrsit0=@! lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCWk1o3RR6XQ9J4mGcGF5hZ0jvTMUO/AKrY13+e4Xg+saeJa50i8/qUepgPZwCBUU0dj1FrfBYq0JvlQ@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCWuf7xG+TbzupWH2oJTIVdjdtQARrEBLfalcIAXab2ViNHPycL+6DqkZVzlzvv5zXiQbxlCEnzNfA==@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCXM9ofG04kohr+imW05asV+71awbNjLQeeYiO7T7vqO4ypDXVrneIKARVmK/kqYdHO/LBdAqJBLeoDzM3bjF64n@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCXgQtL2I/cD8SeK3AS278w7FO/2RbrIfJhELIimGiXxxl86pwh01MfdIKxsEug7SpPI5TDoCVhLlMU=@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yyk+2gNnhFMhZz4PHK9X6e8xjUhLzb9Nnd2vtd8DzlgUzvQpXk2 uIc+w5gNaqcZJVGV7TIj+sr2fTeuNTvilcRUyaXjAXWF0kpGMocgllua7Fqe3M6wqvPOCWGkNo9 enp5qiSXbbisrwc8LW7v/ULV1NR0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IH0HR5e1US3lxnsBmxo38qRsbBwse7yYIXO4/7JPmDpeRC4g3FXA1bATau1jaoPr2sAwF7AOqsDnsuymhAwoiE= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5786:0:b0:471:fdf5:3cd7 with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-4791b27f6cdmr9225381cf.37.1743650927155; Wed, 02 Apr 2025 20:28:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <014po62q-r99p-71np-52r1-n84n9np63nqr@ynat.uz> <87plhvlyoc.fsf@toke.dk> <976DC4FC-44CA-4C7E-90E0-DE39B57F01E1@comcast.com> <8DA2934A-43D1-4700-8F32-CA424C3FAE8D@comcast.com> <1743623511.52759201@apps.rackspace.com> In-Reply-To: <1743623511.52759201@apps.rackspace.com> From: the keyboard of geoff goodfellow X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: X-Gm-Features: AQ5f1JrgjS8cZ-yDTULOkWri6GeHziY1yZCRIDRcfQFQZQE0yaaTWJr7k4Bhm10 Message-ID: Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_=5BStarlink=5D_=5BCake=5D_=5BBloat=5D_In_loving_memory_of_Da?= =?UTF-8?Q?ve_T=C3=A4ht_=3C3?= To: "David P. Reed" Cc: "Livingood, Jason" , "cerowrt-commits@lists.bufferbloat.net" , "bloat-ietf@lists.bufferbloat.net" , Herbert Wolverson , Make-Wifi-fast , "cerowrt-users@lists.bufferbloat.net" , libreqos , Jeremy Austin via Rpm , "Frantisek (Frank) Borsik" , =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspect?= =?UTF-8?Q?s_heard_this_time=21?= , "codel-wireless@lists.bufferbloat.net" , "cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" , bloat , Cake List , "codel@lists.bufferbloat.net" , Dave Taht via Starlink , =?UTF-8?Q?Robert_Chac=C3=B3n?= , Internet-history Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002023260631d75ecf" X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 1.0.7 at strange.networkguild.org X-Virus-Status: Clean X-BitDefender-Scanner: Clean, Agent: BitDefender Milter 3.1.7 on strange.networkguild.org, sigver: 7.98633 X-BitDefender-Spam: No (0) X-BitDefender-SpamStamp: Build: [Engines: 2.19.4.1579, Dats: 871106, Stamp: 3], Multi: [Enabled, t: (0.000011,0.114938)], BW: [Enabled, t: (0.000007), whitelisted: geoff@iconia.com], APM: [Enabled, Score: 500, t: (0.033371,0.000716), Flags: BA7B0291; NN_LARGISH_BIGGISH; NN_PLEASURE; NN_BEGIN_TAG_NOT_OK; NN_EXEC_H_DICTIONARY_EMAIL_ADDRESSES; NN_LEGIT_VALID_REPLY; NN_LEGIT_SUMM_400_WORDS; NN_LEGIT_S_SQARE_BRACKETS; NN_LEGIT_ML_MAIL_LIST_ADN], RTDA: [Disabled], total: 0(775) X-BitDefender-CF-Stamp: none X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.0 required=5.0 autolearn=disabled X-Spam-Report: * -99 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP * 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.1 (2024-03-25) on strange.networkguild.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 06 Jun 2025 06:42:47 -0400 Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2025 03:28:55 -0000 X-Original-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2025 20:28:10 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2025 03:28:55 -0000 --0000000000002023260631d75ecf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable vis-a-vis* "**thinking about how we could get Dave recognized for his contributions" =E2=9E=94=E2=9E=94 *At The Very Least Dave should immediatel= y be posthumously nominated to The InternetHallOfFame.org as Dave Most Certainly Qualifies For *"Recognizing the People **Who Bring the Internet to Life"* geoff On Wed, Apr 2, 2025 at 12:52=E2=80=AFPM David P. Reed via Starlink < starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > Hi all - > > > > I've already shared my sadness and appreciation of my good friend Dave on > LinkedIn. > > I met him through Jim Gettys at the beginning of the Bufferbloat > discovery, and besides our long correspondence, I hope I have given him > enough support over the years - including introducing him to my network o= f > friends, some of whom are on this list. Others he found by himself. > He's been a one-person social network out there, who got things done > beyond what institutions seem to be able to do. (And he amazed me by > managing to get a stodgy IETF crowd to pay attention to the congestion > control issue, despite much institutional resistance, and academic > networking researchers who never got the point). Of course, Jason Livingo= od > worked behind the scenes very hard to bypass corporate resistance, too. > > Also, I can share something that few knew about - I brought Dave into an > ex parte policy discussion at the FCC about an idea being promoted that t= he > FCC should require all routers the FCC certified to have a complete "lock= ed > down" configuration that could not be changed by users. I got brought in > because of my FCC TAC involvement around Software Defined Radio. But the > folks behind the proposal were just using that as an excuse - they wanted > really to block WISPs by raising the cost of WiFi routers. Dave, who knew > more than anything why re-flashing routers made them MORE secure and coul= d > explain it in a disarming way to lawyers and policymakers, managed to get > the commissioners to understand that security wasn't something the FCC > could certify, and also why commercial routers weren't at all secure. He > was so much better at explaining in what you might call an inclusive, > folksy way that he changed the FCC's approach significantly - away from > Certifying Security entirely. (The SDR issue ended up not being relevant = to > routers, though SDR is still a complex policy issue that is holding back > innovation in wireless systems.) I'm certain Dave has had much impact of > this sort. > > > > However, Dave's passing s very frustrating to me because of two things: > > > > 1) there is no one who can replace Dave. The things he made happen will > continue, but he was only getting started on issues like improving WiFi. > Again, the resistance to improving WiFi is both institutional and > corporate, and researchers won't challenge the institutional and corporat= e > shibboleths that get in the way of solving critical problems in the 802.1= 1 > implementation and systems architecture domain. (Unfortunately, WiFi has > become a political term that is being used by "wireless" operators and > their suppliers to fight for or against monopoly control of the airwaves, > very parallel to the problems of getting engineering solutions on Interne= t > fabric that deal with congestion. So it can't be done in the institutions > and corporations focused away from the engineering challenges. That's why > Dave was needed.) > > 2) I was thinking about how we could get Dave recognized for his > contributions. Like other unsung heroes, Dave didn't work for BBN or some > other moneyed entity who would commission a book or a memorial. (BBN paid > Katie Hafner to write the text that later turned into her book "When > Wizards Stay Up Late", which oddly only talked about the ARPANET/Internet > pioneers who worked for BBN, omitting many of my Internet colleagues.) > Dave wasn't the kind of guy that gets Awards from the Computer History > Museum or the ACM or IEEE. He wasn't beloved at IETF or ISOC that I know > of. He's in the category of folks like Noel Chiappa or Bram Cohen or > Richard Stallman or Aaron Swartz - people I think really changed the way = we > think about computing and internetworking, but who won't be in the offici= al > histories. > > I was hoping (before this week) to try to > > On Wednesday, April 2, 2025 09:59, "Livingood, Jason via Cake" < > cake@lists.bufferbloat.net> said: > > > Very sad news indeed! I had the pleasure of working closely with Dave > for 15 > > years. He was generous with his time and had a unique way of bringing > people > > together to make the internet better for everyone! > > > > > > I had to go down memory lane to recall when I first really started > working with > > him. It may have been around 2010 or so. In 2012, I started sending > funds his way > > via my day job to help him and his merry network of collaborators work > to develop > > the CoDel AQM. > > > > > > Funding him was not necessarily easy, as Dave had a unique way of > working and was > > best when he had complete autonomy and only loosely outlined goals - > typically > > hard to sell in a big company. But he could make things happen, so it > worked. And > > I knew when he started complaining about maintenance needs on his boat, > or the > > need to recruit a new person to the project, or about a great new (and > practical!) > > idea, that it was time to top up his funding. ;-) > > > > > > That initial CoDel support in 2012 was extended to underwrite work on > his idea to > > develop RRUL, the first real working latency test that I can remember > > (https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/RRUL_Spec/ > > ). He was > also > > helpful in introducing me to Simon Kelley, developer of dnsmasq, so we > could > > underwrite some IPv6 features in dnsmasq (and Dave convinced Simon to > come to an > > IETF meeting to help gather requirements and meet folks). > > > > > > Dave got CoDel working, so we developed a compelling demo of CoDel on a > DOCSIS > > network (via a CeroWrt-based router connected to a cable modem) and > brought him > > along to IETF-86 in March 2013 in Orlando - see interview with Dave at > > https://youtu.be/NuHYOu4aAqg?si=3Dp0SJHLNpp_6n7XP9&t=3D195 > > . > > > > > > From 2014-2017, I was able to make additional financial support happen > for him, so > > he could do R&D into how to improve buffer bloat in WiFi network links > and > > equipment, a project he called "Make WiFi Fast". In 2020-2021 and 2024, > I found > > funding for his work again, this time to work on accelerating AQM > adoption in the > > real world & work related to the CAKE AQM. > > > > > > Thanks in part to my longstanding collaboration with Dave, tens of > millions of > > DOCSIS users in our network have AQM and thus far better network > responsiveness. > > The same is true for AQMs he worked on, CeroWrt, LibreQoS, and other > projects. He > > succeeded in his goal to make the internet better for everyone! > > > > > > We will miss you, Dave! > > > > > > Jason > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Cake mailing list > > Cake@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cake > > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > --=20 Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com living as The Truth is True --0000000000002023260631d75ecf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= font face=3D"verdana, sans-serif">vis-a-vis "thin= king about how we could get Dave recognized for his contributions" =E2= =9E=94=E2=9E=94 At The Very Least Dave should immediately be=C2=A0posth= umously=C2=A0nominated to The Int= ernetHallOfFame.org=C2=A0as Dave Most Certainly Qualifies For &qu= ot;Recognizing the People=C2=A0Who Bring the Internet to Life= "
=

geoff

On Wed, Apr 2, 2025 at 12:52=E2= =80=AFPM David P. Reed via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

Hi a= ll -

=C2=A0=

I'= ve already shared my sadness and appreciation of my good friend Dave on Lin= kedIn.

I met = him through Jim Gettys at the beginning of the Bufferbloat discovery, and b= esides our long correspondence, I hope I have given him enough support over= the years - including introducing him to my network of friends, some of wh= om are on this list. Others he found by himself.=C2=A0
He's been a o= ne-person social network out there, who got things done beyond what institu= tions seem to be able to do. (And he amazed me by managing to get a stodgy = IETF crowd to pay attention to the congestion control issue, despite much i= nstitutional resistance, and academic networking researchers who never got = the point). Of course, Jason Livingood worked behind the scenes very hard t= o bypass corporate resistance, too.

Also, I can share something that= few knew about - I brought Dave into an ex parte policy discussion at the = FCC about an idea being promoted that the FCC should require all routers th= e FCC certified to have a complete "locked down" configuration th= at could not be changed by users. I got brought in because of my FCC TAC in= volvement around Software Defined Radio. But the folks behind the proposal = were just using that as an excuse - they wanted really to block WISPs by ra= ising the cost of WiFi routers. Dave, who knew more than anything why re-fl= ashing routers made them MORE secure and could explain it in a disarming wa= y to lawyers and policymakers, managed to get the commissioners to understa= nd that security wasn't something the FCC could certify, and also why c= ommercial routers weren't at all secure. He was so much better at expla= ining in what you might call an inclusive, folksy way that he changed the F= CC's approach significantly - away from Certifying Security entirely. (= The SDR issue ended up not being relevant to routers, though SDR is still a= complex policy issue that is holding back innovation in wireless systems.)= I'm certain Dave has had much impact of this sort.

=C2=A0=

Howeve= r, Dave's passing s very frustrating to me because of two things:

=C2=A0=

1) the= re is no one who can replace Dave. The things he made happen will continue,= but he was only getting started on issues like improving WiFi. Again, the = resistance to improving WiFi is both institutional and corporate, and resea= rchers won't challenge the institutional and corporate shibboleths that= get in the way of solving critical problems in the 802.11 implementation a= nd systems architecture domain. (Unfortunately, WiFi has become a political= term that is being used by "wireless" operators and their suppli= ers to fight for or against monopoly control of the airwaves, very parallel= to the problems of getting engineering solutions on Internet fabric that d= eal with congestion. So it can't be done in the institutions and corpor= ations focused away from the engineering challenges. That's why Dave wa= s needed.)

2) I was thinking about how we could get Dave recognized = for his contributions. Like other unsung heroes, Dave didn't work for B= BN or some other moneyed entity who would commission a book or a memorial. = (BBN paid Katie Hafner to write the text that later turned into her book &q= uot;When Wizards Stay Up Late", which oddly only talked about the ARPA= NET/Internet pioneers who worked for BBN, omitting many of my Internet coll= eagues.)=C2=A0 Dave wasn't the kind of guy that gets Awards from the Co= mputer History Museum or the ACM or IEEE. He wasn't beloved at IETF or = ISOC that I know of. He's in the category of folks like Noel Chiappa or= Bram Cohen or Richard Stallman or Aaron Swartz - people I think really cha= nged the way we think about computing and internetworking, but who won'= t be in the official histories.

I was hoping (before this week) to t= ry to=C2=A0

On Wed= nesday, April 2, 2025 09:59, "Livingood, Jason via Cake" <cake@lists.buff= erbloat.net> said:

> V= ery sad news indeed! I had the pleasure of working closely with Dave for 15=
> years. He was generous with his time and had a unique way of bring= ing people
> together to make the internet better for everyone!
&g= t;
>
> I had to go down memory lane to recall when I first re= ally started working with
> him. It may have been around 2010 or so. = In 2012, I started sending funds his way
> via my day job to help him= and his merry network of collaborators work to develop
> the CoDel A= QM.
>
>
> Funding him was not necessarily easy, as Dave= had a unique way of working and was
> best when he had complete auto= nomy and only loosely outlined goals - typically
> hard to sell in a = big company. But he could make things happen, so it worked. And
> I k= new when he started complaining about maintenance needs on his boat, or the=
> need to recruit a new person to the project, or about a great new = (and practical!)
> idea, that it was time to top up his funding. ;-)<= br>>
>
> That initial CoDel support in 2012 was extended t= o underwrite work on his idea to
> develop RRUL, the first real worki= ng latency test that I can remember
> (https://www.buff= erbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/RRUL_Spec/
> <ht= tps://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/RRUL_Spec/>). He was a= lso
> helpful in introducing me to Simon Kelley, developer of dnsmasq= , so we could
> underwrite some IPv6 features in dnsmasq (and Dave co= nvinced Simon to come to an
> IETF meeting to help gather requirement= s and meet folks).
>
>
> Dave got CoDel working, so we = developed a compelling demo of CoDel on a DOCSIS
> network (via a Cer= oWrt-based router connected to a cable modem) and brought him
> along= to IETF-86 in March 2013 in Orlando - see interview with Dave at
> <= a href=3D"https://youtu.be/NuHYOu4aAqg?si=3Dp0SJHLNpp_6n7XP9&t=3D195" t= arget=3D"_blank">https://youtu.be/NuHYOu4aAqg?si=3Dp0SJHLNpp_6n7XP9&t= =3D195
> <https://youtu.be/NuHYOu4aAqg?si=3D= p0SJHLNpp_6n7XP9&t=3D195>.
>
>
> From 2014-2= 017, I was able to make additional financial support happen for him, so
= > he could do R&D into how to improve buffer bloat in WiFi network l= inks and
> equipment, a project he called "Make WiFi Fast".= In 2020-2021 and 2024, I found
> funding for his work again, this ti= me to work on accelerating AQM adoption in the
> real world & wor= k related to the CAKE AQM.
>
>
> Thanks in part to my l= ongstanding collaboration with Dave, tens of millions of
> DOCSIS use= rs in our network have AQM and thus far better network responsiveness.
&= gt; The same is true for AQMs he worked on, CeroWrt, LibreQoS, and other pr= ojects. He
> succeeded in his goal to make the internet better for ev= eryone!
>
>
> We will miss you, Dave!
>
> =
> Jason
>
> ____________________________________________= ___
> Cake mailing list
> Cake@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://= lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cake
>

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlin= k@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


--
= Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com=
living as The Truth is True

--0000000000002023260631d75ecf--