From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ob0-x234.google.com (mail-ob0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::234]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 37C9921F1F0 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2015 08:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obcxo2 with SMTP id xo2so57443951obc.0 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2015 08:40:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=8EwbW5ZwwPSvny65tql4ECr/Af+/BAwvIZLYmDh1GLs=; b=BFviALZzhpAemu/U5jM5P0BK3gpyLxsTGKiu8bYPlZlfGs/Z2LDrbAX9q3fFAjAbrJ 2Xrkak9T566IkRSikk2of/xjOF8JeN3k9CoMPTKKWcPzQY2923ah/I7gxKgX/vv0JyXp rViOJuJATFucjJ3jyNMEhmfS5ZX1CvZNQOx8mfAVjzIsKjP3xt3Q6WwmxVHY4czLQm43 3xE9MJghGaZ50gf1O8qXzwbQrH+OhHidblEaDEys2fmpCVCoqlktUgJvDsb8xHOU0D2L 1+twkX6gkEl7pWJrM114nzMmX/fBSoumi/8drf+qWAuMRSnxcH4Zyaqvt1c0hKwUtglR WA7Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.182.7 with SMTP id g7mr57558142oif.13.1426779642886; Thu, 19 Mar 2015 08:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Sender: gettysjim@gmail.com Received: by 10.76.6.106 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Mar 2015 08:40:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <88375E7E-8656-4DB6-8389-89C7B9DD7DF4@viagenie.ca> References: <20150316203532.05BD21E2@taggart.lackof.org> <123130.1426635142@turing-police.cc.vt.edu> <15A0911A-E3B7-440A-A26B-C5E1489EA98B@viagenie.ca> <1426773234.362612992@apps.rackspace.com> <88375E7E-8656-4DB6-8389-89C7B9DD7DF4@viagenie.ca> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 11:40:42 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: EcnYIVjQhqXDDnXt_0A7AfAIVeM Message-ID: From: Jim Gettys To: JF Tremblay Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113cf224c980490511a60595 Cc: "cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] DOCSIS 3+ recommendation? X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 15:41:12 -0000 --001a113cf224c980490511a60595 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 10:11 AM, JF Tremblay < jean-francois.tremblay@viagenie.ca> wrote: > > > On Mar 19, 2015, at 9:53 AM, dpreed@reed.com wrote: > > > > How many years has it been since Comcast said they were going to fix > bufferbloat in their network within a year? > =E2=80=8BThey had hoped to be able to use a feature in DOCSIS to at least s= et the buffering to the "correct" size for the provisioned bandwidth. While not fixing bufferbloat, it would have made a big difference (getting latency down to the 100ms range; that would have taken my original 1.2 seconds of bloat down to 100ms). When they went and tested that feature=E2=80=8B, the actual implementations= weren't there and were so buggy, they couldn't turn it on. Moral 1: anything not tested by being used on an ongoing basis, doesn't work. Moral 2: Companies like Comcast do not (currently) control their own destiny, since they outsourced too much of the technology to others. > Any quote on that? > > > THat's a sign that the two dominant sectors of "Internet Access" > business are refusing to support quality Internet service. > > I=E2=80=99m not sure this is a fair statement. Comcast is a major (if not= =E2=80=9Cthe=E2=80=9D > player) in CableLabs, and they made it clear that for Docsis 3.1, aqm was > one of the important target. This might not have happened without all the > noise around bloat that Jim and Dave made for years. (now peering and > transit disputes are another ball game) > > While cable operators started pretty much with a blank slate in the early > days of Docsis, they now have to deal with legacy and a huge tail of old > devices. So in this respect, yes they are now a bit like the DSL > incumbents, introduction of new technologies is over a 3-4 years timefram= e > at least. > =E2=80=8BYup. =E2=80=8B > > > It's almost as if the cable companies don't want OTT video or > simultaneous FTP and interactive gaming to work. Of course not. They'd > never do that. > > > You might be surprised at how much they care for gamers, these are often > their most vocal users. And those who will call to get things fixed. > Support calls and truck rolls are expensive and touch the bottom line, > where it hurts=E2=80=A6 > =E2=80=8BYup. And I agree with Dave Taht, Comcast has had a lot more technical clue than most other ISP's we've interacted with.=E2=80=8B =E2=80=8BAnd these industries are captive to the practices of the companies= that make the gear, and as I've said in public at the Berkman Center, this has really bad and dangerous consequences for the Internet. I'll post a new version of that talk, maybe later today. Now, I've yet to detect any clue it cellular ISP's.... And there, dpr's complaints I believe are correct. - Jim =E2=80=8B > JF > (a former cable operator) > > > _______________________________________________ > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > --001a113cf224c980490511a60595 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Ma= r 19, 2015 at 10:11 AM, JF Tremblay <jean-francois.trembl= ay@viagenie.ca> wrote:

> On Mar 19, 2015, at 9:53 AM, dpreed= @reed.com wrote:
>
> How many years has it been since Comcast said they were going to fix b= ufferbloat in their network within a year?

=
=E2=80=8BThey had hoped to be able to use a feature in DOCSIS to at l= east set the buffering to the "correct" size for the provisioned = bandwidth.=C2=A0 While not fixing bufferbloat, it would have made a big dif= ference (getting latency down to the 100ms range; that would have taken my = original 1.2 seconds of bloat down to 100ms).

Wh= en they went and tested that feature=E2=80=8B, the actual implementations w= eren't there and were so buggy, they couldn't turn it on.

Moral 1: anything not tested by being used on an ongoing = basis, doesn't work.

Moral 2: Companies like= Comcast do not (currently) control their own destiny, since they outsource= d too much of the technology to others.


Any quote on that?

> THat's a sign that the two dominant sectors of "Internet Acce= ss" business are refusing to support quality Internet service.

I=E2=80=99m not sure this is a fair statement. Comcast is a major (i= f not =E2=80=9Cthe=E2=80=9D player) in CableLabs, and they made it clear th= at for Docsis 3.1, aqm was one of the important target. This might not have= happened without all the noise around bloat that Jim and Dave made for yea= rs. (now peering and transit disputes are another ball game)

While cable operators started pretty much with a blank slate in the early d= ays of Docsis, they now have to deal with legacy and a huge tail of old dev= ices. So in this respect, yes they are now a bit like the DSL incumbents, i= ntroduction of new technologies is over a 3-4 years timeframe at least.
=

=E2=80=8BYup.
=E2=80=8B
=C2=A0<= /div>

> It's almost as if the cable companies don't want OTT video or = simultaneous FTP and interactive gaming to work. Of course not. They'd = never do that.


You might be surprised at how much they care for gamers, these are o= ften their most vocal users. And those who will call to get things fixed. S= upport calls and truck rolls are expensive and touch the bottom line, where= it hurts=E2=80=A6

=E2=80=8BYup.
=
=
And I agree with Dave Taht, Comcast has had a lot more tech= nical clue than most other ISP's we've interacted with.=E2=80=8B=C2=A0

=E2=80=8BAnd these industries are captive to the practices o= f the companies that make the gear, and as I've said in public at the B= erkman Center, this has really bad and dangerous consequences for the Inter= net.=C2=A0 I'll post a new version of that talk, maybe later today.

Now, I've yet to detect = any clue it cellular ISP's....=C2=A0 And there, dpr's complaints I = believe are correct.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Jim
=C2=A0=E2=80=8B


JF
(a former cable operator)


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