From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ob0-x232.google.com (mail-ob0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::232]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3CD721F23B; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 09:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-f178.google.com with SMTP id wn1so557015obc.9 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 09:44:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=1nEzBnZ/G3HYJg36TzSf0h8BzI7UpSHnXYg4zDQGJuk=; b=Rw1fdhIVCVQaG5S3z5A4dKAajzYwnNr4iU2jUHu2dLscOsMwk5AmknsZ1HvDCOIrxo St15Dm8/m6U4snbsNOgkRl2KLE1QCcVqtcaL4RbA7ycVtLrae6ZiIpE678yq/4ai3Vh/ mzrGfQPXRRqkC5pjhQDGRQgp+GJSs7z4tAW9z95khM5A5BQ2WZERmJwOQv5LSy9m8/x5 JMR7AmWQjRlNcunIRG/nKlXAm5H7FpJJ+01buh1s8KSyKNsR8DKixJ0+UnkfGfqueSL0 56ECBCPxTGZWCuaKzPimZkq4k6RsXDif+X+atyZ9Fo9THarL7AZrtRKEO7gNd7ln17bY Q4ww== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.125.195 with SMTP id ms3mr421153oeb.3.1398789878674; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 09:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Sender: gettysjim@gmail.com Received: by 10.76.73.100 with HTTP; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 09:44:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4130D000-FE28-4A5E-B824-3371C1602472@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 12:44:38 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: JDTl2IEp_p49TBfekRvNUJzevAQ Message-ID: From: Jim Gettys To: Mikael Abrahamsson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b33cf28d57c0404f83125b7 Cc: "aqm@ietf.org" , "Fred Baker \(fred\)" , "cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" , bloat Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] [aqm] the side effects of 330ms lag in the real world X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 16:44:40 -0000 --047d7b33cf28d57c0404f83125b7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 3:56 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote= : > On Tue, 29 Apr 2014, Fred Baker (fred) wrote: > > Well, we could discuss international communications. I happen to be at >> Infocom in Toronto, VPN=E2=80=99d into Cisco San Jose, and did a ping to= you: >> > > Yes, but as soon as you hit the long distance network the latency is the > same regardless of access method. So while I agree that understanding the > effect of latency is important, it's no longer a meaningful way of sellin= g > fiber access. If your last-mile is fiber instead of ADSL2+ won't improve > your long distance latency. =E2=80=8BFIOS bufferbloat is a problem too. Measured bufferbloat, symmetric 25/25 service in New Jersey at my inlaw's house is 200ms (on the ethernet port of the Actiontec router provided by Verizon). So latency under load is the usual problem. Why would you think the GPON guys are any better in principle than cable or DSL? Cable and DSL may be somewhat worse, just because it is older and downward compatibility means that new modems on low bandwidth tiers are even more grossly over buffered. You can look at the netalyzr scatter plots in http://gettys.wordpress.com/2010/12/06/whose-house-is-of-glasse-must-not-th= row-stones-at-another/ Now, if someone gives me real fiber to the home, with a real switch fabric upstream, rather than gpon life might be somewhat better (if the switches aren't themselves overbuffered.... But so far, it isn't. - Jim - Jim - Jim =E2=80=8B > > > -- > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se > > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > > --047d7b33cf28d57c0404f83125b7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue= , Apr 29, 2014 at 3:56 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se> wrote:
On Tue, 29 Apr 2014, Fred Baker (fred) wro= te:

Well, we could discuss international communications. I happen to be at Info= com in Toronto, VPN=E2=80=99d into Cisco San Jose, and did a ping to you:

Yes, but as soon as you hit the long distance network the latency is the sa= me regardless of access method. So while I agree that understanding the eff= ect of latency is important, it's no longer a meaningful way of selling= fiber access. If your last-mile is fiber instead of ADSL2+ won't impro= ve your long distance latency.

=E2= =80=8BFIOS bufferbloat is a problem too.

Measured bufferbloat, symmetric 25/25 service in New Jersey= at my inlaw's house is 200ms (on the ethernet port of the Actiontec ro= uter provided by Verizon). =C2=A0So latency under load is the usual problem= .

Why would you think the GPON g= uys are any better in principle than cable or DSL? =C2=A0Cable and DSL may = be somewhat worse, just because it is older and downward compatibility mean= s that new modems on low bandwidth tiers are even more grossly over buffere= d.
You can look at the = netalyzr scatter plots in=C2=A0http://ge= ttys.wordpress.com/2010/12/06/whose-house-is-of-glasse-must-not-throw-stone= s-at-another/

Now, if someone gives me real = fiber to the home, with a real switch fabric upstream, rather than gpon lif= e might be somewhat better (if the switches aren't themselves overbuffe= red.... =C2=A0But so far, it isn't.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Jim

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Jim

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Jim

=E2=80=8B<= /div>


--
Mikael Abrahamsson =C2=A0 =C2=A0email: swmike@swm.pp.se

_____________________= __________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net<= /a>
= https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat


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